To take something and make it better: it’s what we as automotive enthusiasts do. The car is more than a way of getting from A to B – it’s like a canvas that we can personalise in our own individual ways. For some, that’s going to be limited to a set of wheels and maybe a suspension drop. For others though, there’s going to be little recognisable from the standard car. Now this all comes down to individual tastes, and I’ve got a passion for power. While there’s almost nothing you can’t do to a standard engine to release more power, sometimes it just makes more sense to chuck the stocker in the bin and start fresh with something all together more bad-ass.
Engine swaps, or engine conversions – they’re one of the core components of the hot rod culture and they’ve been around almost as long as the automobile. Let’s see why this is a smart choice though…
Modifying a stock engine is a perfectly acceptable option and you’ll find no shortage of examples in the Speedhunters archives. Cams, turbos, ported heads, nitrous, superchargers – the sky is the limit and there’s no doubt these modifications are all effective in their own right.
It’s easy reading about modified engines on the internet, but often living with them is a different story. If you’re looking for a 10 per cent, 20 per cent, or even perhaps a 50 per cent increase over stock then that can often be had with a minimum of fuss. But what if you want double or triple the stock power? Of course it’s going to depend what you’re starting with, but often even insane increases are possible – they usually just come with downsides that are rarely discussed. I’m talking about reliability, driveability and fuel economy.
Stock engines are great at providing a nice, smoothly-refined ride, with good economy and reliability. Once you start pushing the boundaries though, you’re going to need to make some sacrifices.
Let’s get some perspective – I’ve owned and driven an 1100whp-plus Mitsubishi Lancer Evo. It’s the stuff that most guys or girls with a love of cars would dream about. The trouble was that my 4G63 didn’t make any real boost until 7000rpm, and beyond that you needed to walk a tightrope to keep the thing within a very narrow power-band. On the drag strip it was a weapon capable of laying down 8.2-second passes at 180-mph, but on the street it would have likely been cleaned up by a stock Suzuki Swift. And did I mention the engine rebuilds every 40-50 passes? Yeah, that’s a rebuild every 16 to 20km…
So what do you do if you want more power without sacrifice? An obvious choice is an engine swap – simply choose a factory engine with the sort of power and torque you would like and drop it in the engine bay. Of course, there’s a little more too it than that, but we’ll get to that in a moment. If you make a smart choice, you’re going to get the best of both worlds – the sort of power and torque you want, coupled with the refinement, reliability and smooth power delivery of a stock engine. Naturally, we could also decide to modify the new engine, but that’s a separate issue.
Sacrifices Or Engine Swaps
So you’ve decided to swap in a different engine – great. The motor’s in, the engine mounts are made and the driveshaft is connected. Now what? Well, this is where things get tricky. Rewind 10 years or more and it wasn’t hard to fit a different engine. For example, it was pretty simple to drop an LS2 into a Nissan S14 or S15. If the car had an electronically controlled automatic then that might have thrown a spanner in the works, but for the most part all the car’s electronic systems kind of minded their own business and kept to themselves. Modern cars make our lives harder though thanks to three little letters- C, A and N.
CAN stands for Controller Area Network and it’s been a mainstream OE communications technology for many years. In a nutshell CAN is a two wire bus that transmits data between all the different automotive sub systems. The engine computer, ABS computer, transmission computer, instrument cluster and even the air conditioning may all communicate via CAN. The problem comes when you try to swap in a different engine as usually the ECU that runs the new engine will no longer send out the right CAN messages (if any at all).
What this means is that while your engine might run, the rest of the car kind of goes into a weird ‘limp home’ mode. No ABS, no RPM or speed on your instrument cluster, and maybe the power steer doesn’t work and the car won’t shift gear. If you’re building a stripped-out race car this probably isn’t a big deal as you’ll be replacing the entire electronics package, but for those of us on the street it is a little hard to live with.
Speaking The Right LanguageSo what are our options? Are engine swaps a thing of the past? Are we stuck with what the manufacturer gave us? Well, it depends how smart you are – but there are options. Since CAN is an industry standard communication protocol, it’s also fairly well understood by most aftermarket ECU manufacturers. Actually, if you want to spend the time, it’s possible to buy a CAN ‘sniffer’ and look at all the data being transmitted over the CAN bus so you can figure out what message relates to what data and then replicate it using a capable ECU. I’ll admit, this is well beyond what most home enthusiasts are capable of, but it’s something that can be done.
Luckily there are a few ECU manufacturers out there who are doing the hard work for us and we can just piggyback off their efforts. I’ll walk you through an example with an engine swap I’m currently helping complete on a 2013 Toyota 86 (aka Scion FRS and Subaru BRZ). No 86 owner is likely to wax lyrical about the awesome power of the stock 4U-GSE/FA20, and instead of contemplating the forced induction route, our customer decided to bite the bullet and drop in a V8. Keeping it in the family though, he did choose the Toyota 1UZ-FE VVTi V8 engine.
While the work of fitting the engine had already been nicely handled by Surfab in Christchurch, New Zealand, prior to the car reaching us, we still had the unenviable job of making the thing go – and this is where things get interesting. Replacing the stock ECU with a standalone would have meant that the CAN messages the stock ECU sends would be missing. In the 86 this effects the ABS, traction control, air conditioning, electric power steering, cruise control and even the rev counter. Not ideal.
Let’s look at why this is the case with a very simple example of the instrument cluster. We rely on the instrument cluster for information such as engine RPM and engine temperature among other things, in older cars these signals were provided by dedicated outputs from the ECU – or in the case of coolant temperature, even a separate sensor dedicated to the temp gauge. This meant that it wasn’t too difficult to replicate these signals if we swapped engines. In modern cars though, this data is typically sent via CAN straight from the factory ECU. The gauge cluster knows where on the CAN bus to look and that’s how it gets the information.
If we fit a standalone ECU without the correct CAN bus support, this information is missing and hence the gauge cluster won’t be able to receive the temperature data when it looks for it. In our example, to get around this we’re using a MoTeC M1 ECU package which is specifically developed for the Toyota 86. In this case, the M1 ECU takes the temperature data from the engine temperature sensor and then transmits it in the same CAN format the gauge cluster is looking for to keep it working correctly.
If you’re contemplating an engine swap on a late-model car, you’re going to need to do your homework as it’s pretty likely you will end up facing these sort of issues. While the solutions might not always be straightforward, it’s going to be a lot easier finding out about them before you’ve invested thousands in getting your new engine mounted up in the engine bay. Of course, if you’re working on a car that’s very popular and has a lot of aftermarket support, then your options are going to be much wider.
If you’ve got engine swap questions, ask them in the comments sections below. I’d also love to hear what your dream engine swap would be.
Andre Simon
Instagram: hpa101
Website: www.learntotune.com
Images by Ben Silcock
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I've already had an engine swap done on my daily; real simple besides custom mounts. Old engines make it real easy. As far as a dream engine swap goes, I'd love to have a VTEC in a 510 sedan.
I like that the 86 owner went with a 1UZ. Its something different and an engine I happen to have a soft spot for. One question I have is about CAN signals (and it actually came to me while reading this article). I take it that CAN signals are different between manufacturers, but are they also different between certain cars and engines within that manufacturer? And if so, what kind of differential is there between them? Would it make more sense for a modern car to have an equally modern engine from the same family?
An bmw s62 v10 in an BMW e28 or e28 touring, and have it super clean preferably bagged.
tunerguy21 can even be different between two power levels of the same engine. Purely digital signal, basically the same type of signal your internet data comes though the CAT cable. Its "relatively easy" to design a CAN bus, but very hard to decode it without the source code.
At some point in my life I'd like to build a Volvo Amazon with a B5244S five zylinder in place of the B18/B20. M90 gearbox, Megasquirt and ITBs, plus shenanigans like modules to link the old instrument cluster to the new hardware.
Being a japenese car nut as well as risking a lot of 'disapproval'..
Nissan builds the better looking cars while Toyota builds the better engines.
The dream's a Kenmeri Skyline with 1JZ (with massive overfenders and 14x12 longchamps (obviously))!
Dill Pickle your daily is hot!
Thank you! I probably should've bought something a little easier on the wallet in regards to fuel economy; but where's the fun in driving a Civic or Corolla like everyone else?
Dill Pickle You put a SBC in a vehicle that came with a SBC from the factory. That is not too difficult to do. Parts and mounts are off the shelf. I think that the author is talking about complete, non original swaps.
So the Motec pnp costs 5400.00 give or take when a an iq3 dash with a different standalone can be had for alot less?
I've got two projects in mind:
1 - A third-gen F-body Firebird (preferably 1982-1985 so it doesn't have to be inspected or smogged) with 89 GTA ground effects, a single-turbo RB26 and a C5 Corvette manual transaxle.
2 - A hot rod tow truck made out of an 85 Buick Le Sabre wagon with the 440 Chrysler that's been sitting on my engine stand for 15 years and a dually axle from a Dodge Ram 3500.
I can talk about my dream engine swaps all day lol lets see..
S85 in a e36,46 or 92
Viper 10 in a impreza gda,gdb. Or a bmw or an s chassis
Ls in a impreza,is250 or fd3s or se3p
I like swaps that are not too common like an ls in a s chassis.
I love this article. I'm a nuts and bolts kinda person and never got into the ECU and wiring. Someday I will learn about that stuff but for now I'm a guy with big dreams and not enough money lol
I have 2 dream swaps:
(Fun track car)
92-95 Civic hatch - J's Racing S2000 F20C / RWD conversion (300+ hp naturally aspirated)
- ITB's, caged, and time attack aero)
(Weekend cruiser - Coffee and cars)
96-98 Nissan S14 Kouki - BMW M5 S85 V10 (500 hp stock).......Youtube this engine with aftermarket exhaust!
- Stock, intake/exhaust, and super clean
My dream swap would be a Volvo 5 cylinder either a turbo that would be the more obvious choice but something about a stroked N/A engine just seems to fit the car I have in mind better. A 240Z...blashhemy? Yes of course....but the noise....THE NOISE !
Well the engine is 10 years older than the truck; so there were some issues. The swap mechanically was relatively easy. The electrical, eh not so much. I did catch that the main focus was on modern cross manufacturer swaps, I just figured that posting some pics would be appropriate.
914RS its been done
914RS its was glorious
914RS http://www.speedhunters.com/2011/02/guest_blog_zach_zupancic_gt_gt_volvo_powered_240z_on_a_budget/
I got two dream swaps , a relatively reasonable one which I am planning to do soon and one that I think would be really interesting.
The first is an an S54 ( e46 m3 ) into my 94 325is and the second is an older STI motor into a w123 benz.
VB325 STI motor in a w123 would be interesting to say the least
Here you have the opposite - old merc engine in eastern car: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLBVrM0wJvE
914RS Doing a bit similar swap/project
my first dream swap would be a dally driver/ race car e36 m3 with a s54 na build with itbs straight pipes mmmmmm, 2th i'm a big bmw fan so i really like the e46 m3 either the v10 swap from the e60 m5 or the v8 from the e90 m3, and also maybe 240z with maybe the euro e36 m3 engine or another s54 swap
1VD-FTV into a 60 series landcruiser. Maybe not a speedhunters style swap but would be a beast of a truck.
how much are those to swap into a e36?
putting one of those newer VW 1.4TSI with ~150ps into a Mk1 Golf Gti ,should be a perfect match and keeps the weight balance for cornering
and as 2nd , a 3.6 AMG Inline 6 in a lowered W114
and boosting a bone stock looking mk4 Jetta V6 would create quite a sleeper
Alongside owning an FQ340 Evo 8 one day, I'd absolutely love to get a W638 (specifically a 2000 model year) Mercedes Vito, but swap in a 450-500whp 4G63T and couple that to an Evos 4WD system. That would be awesome
Oooooo I got a couple:
Cummins 4bt powered Wrangler or Comanche
Cummins 12v powered Power Wagon
S65 powered E30
2jz powered AE86
LSX Delorean
13b NA Miata
3.6 Porsche powered Beetle
Audi TDI powered Microbus
RB powered S-Chassis
572 powered 56 Chevy 3100
Coyote powered notchback Fox Body
Roush - Yates Nascar powered 67 notchback
LS powered 1st or 2nd gen z28
Hyabusa powered Smart Car
5.7 Hemi powered any old Mopar
vr38 powered Hakosuka
I could think of more probably but these would be cool
tunerguy21 CAN is a common communications protocol and as such is universal. The tricky bit is that there is no set address over which certain information must be sent. This means that one manufacturer may send RPM over 2 bytes at address 0x0A1 with an offset of 4. Another manufacturer may send this data at address 0x120 with an offset of 2. This is what makes decoding the CAN data a little tricky.
Just swapping to another later model engine from the same family won't necessarily help as there are undoubtedly going to be difference between the CAN bus addresses and data between different engines and cars even within the same manufacturer.
Acc decoding the CAN bus data isn't what I'd call child's play, but it's certainly doable by those with a technical mindset and a desire to learn. You simply need a CAN sniffer, a scanner, a lot of patience, and a desire to learn.
For example I've just completed decoding the CAN bus data from a Hyundai marine diesel engine for use in a MoTeC dash in a commercial jet boat and it was about 12 hours work with zero manufacturer support.
AlexGut I'm not sure I have a specific preference on the car, but I'd have to agree that the Toyota engines are a stronger and more reliable unit. The VVL SR20 cylinder head however is a work of art from Nissan.
@tom I like your ideas there! The S85 engine in particular is a favourite of mine. Not too many manufacturers offer a V10 and that sound is hard to beat.
I'm not sure I would have said the LS into S-chassis was uncommon? It seems to be a popular choice for the drift crowd at least.
Vega Asterion Both would be great swaps although the RWD conversion might add some complexity!
Couldn't agree more on the sound of the S85 with a decent exhaust. About as close as you're likely to get to the note of an older F1 car without revving to 20,000 + rpm
JohnTruitt There are some great ideas in this list! I've had personal experience with a 2JZ swapped AE86 and it was a scary ride with more power than grip! I'd have to say that the 2JZ doesn't do great things for the handling balance the AE86 is known for though.
I would really like to know, when it would be easier to just wrap the body around a different drivetrain? A chassis swap I guess.
I ask because I assume an engine swap means upgrades to the brakes, clutch etc, so how do you decide when to cut your losses?
I currently own a FRS.. And getting ready collecting all parts to do a 1jz engine swap. I already have the engine. 1jz vvti . I asume that the MoTec uses the factory FRS ECU wire harness . Question would I vabe to adaptthe existing harness to the engine? Or does the MoTec uses a custom harness?
What others standalone ecu options do I have to maintain the CAN network?
Thanks!
Im pretty sure I have heard of a 964 911 Turbo in a beetle too.
huertash The MoTeC M1 can be purchased with an adaptor loom that makes it 'plug & play' with the stock harness. For an engine swap though you'll need to modify the harness in the engine bay to suit your 1JZ. In the case of the car in the article, we are simply constructing a new harness from the factory firewall connector out.
Right now the MoTeC is the only option I'm personally aware of that will provide full support for the factory CAN bus.
Oops I meant that the engine is 10 years newer than the truck lol
@fucntionoverform There are a long list of standalone ECUs that you could use for less money than the MoTeC M1, however the dash is only one part of the factory car that won't work. The CAN bus is also responsible for the factory electric power steering and the air conditioning system just to name a couple more systems that won't work with a generic standalone.
Ah, don't read too much into what I said there bro, Nissan has built plenty of outstanding engines.
I'm an RB26 driver myself!
Personally I just kept getting the feeling that with the popular engines, be it an rb vs a jz or even say oldschool engines like Nissan's S20 vs Toyota's 1G - I have the feeling Toyota kept having the "better" engines looking at their respective popularities. It's not all about reliability and power either so don't get me wrong please, it's more personal preference.
Apart from that I love literally every oldschool Toyota chassis!
It is nice to dream right? About "dream swaps". I work in the automotive industry as a lowly mechanic (please leave the criticisms aside till you`ve read the whole post). Anyway simply put: most of you are not going to start it. If you do...you aren`t going to finish it. Of course there will be a small percentage of you that DO finish a swap. Good for you!
Just remember, you are a small percentage of people...a group of elite if you will.
It`s all a time and money game when it comes to automotive hobbies. Some people have a lot of one or the other, some people are not entitled to either, sad but true.
There are things I wish I knew before jumping into swaps, and mind you I haven`t done much of anything overly complicated due to a lack of time and funds (after all, an auto mechanic makes 30k a year if you`re lucky).
What I`ve learned is simple: It`s going to take 3 times longer than you have allocated for the project and at around twice as much money than you have allocated. Do not set a deadline as you will only disappoint yourself. Do it RIGHT, do it ONCE.
Sorry for the rant, just finished my soul draining shift and pounded a beer. Bless all you folks!
@Andre Simon Ok, that makes sense.
JohnTruitt The foxbody is already taken care of thanks to FORD. They sell a full swap kit that allows stock guages and such to work with the Coyote ECU. They also sell every part needed to swap it and a trans. Its pretty much taken care of by them.
Vega Asterion Ever seen the f20c swapped crx? a lot of the pictures are down but there are a few on the last page. http://www.realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/index.php/topic,126.570.html?PHPSESSID=d61snbm56tnebcdlkqqd8num64
Ice Age RBswapped F-body was something I toyed with too...especially with a decent dry sump setup and all the rb oiling issues addressed.
Looking at swapping in a rb20det, rb25det or sr20det engine into my 96 w210 mercedes.. im looking at front cuts as they come with all the components i need. Custom engine gearbox mounts and drive shaft are simple enough to get made up. What im interested in tho is the best way to make the dash work.. abs wise im not to worried about it working.
What other issues should i knw about b4 attempting this
dream build would be ae86 levin with lfa engine for time attack..drycarbon everything
Will it control VVTI? Antilag?
GranttMbcnz While I'm not familiar specifically with the w210 Merc, a car of this age won't have the complexities of CAn. This was an older and simpler generation which made our lives a lot easier when it came to engine modification and swaps. These cars would most likely incorporate a separate sender for the water temp on the dash, and the rpm signal would be sent as a digital signal from the ECU. You shouldn't have much trouble replicating these with the swaps you're looking at.
The only other issue to consider would be the speedo signal. If this is taken from the stock gearbox and you're swapping in a new box then you will need to make sure the drive is compatible. Some are mechanical (almost certain given the age of your car), while newer drives are electronic.
jdizzlemo I'll agree that in general it's impossible to accurately price an engine swap. there are simply too many variables that are impossible to foresee unless it's an engine swap you've done before.
It sounds like you're down on your industry though which isn't cool. There are plenty of opportunities out there if you're passionate about the automotive industry. If you don't like your current position, look for something better suited to your skills and interests - Life's too short to be unhappy in your work.
huertash it sure will. We're using the GPR engine swap package which includes MoTeC's race functions such as traction control, launch control, antilag and gear change ignition cut control.
Andre Simon JohnTruitt Yeah but I'm sure a stupid fast hachi like that was fun as hell
JohnTruitt I can't say it wasn't fun. There's something worrying though about any car that doesn't get traction until 4th gear
Cool!!!
Currently have a '61 jeep cj5, I had the original engine rebuilt and rebuilt the tranny and transfer case myself. After college and I land a job, I am considering dropping in some more serious hardware considering the original engine makes 74 HP and the tranny is a 3 speed. Any advice on dropping in a newer engine/tranny into an older car?
mlc5309 Cummins 4bt with an nv series 5spd. Hope you like torque and black smoke
Andre Simon JohnTruitt Lol that wasnt a stock 2j now was it
HECK. YES.
I'm doing an engine swap right now on my 90 CRX Si. Out of necessity over want. My head blew in my last engine. Probably putting in a B16 as that is what it had before.
JohnTruitt It may have been fitted with an HKS T51R SPL turbo and been pushing out around 700 hp
Andre Simon JohnTruitt Jesus Christ haha thats a bad bitch
Ive been thinking about swapping a 3sge beams for months now into my 81 corona but swapping a drive by wire engine into a car that came carbureted will be complicated. What would be some possible solutions for this?
Ive been thinking about swapping a 3sge beams for months now into my 81 corona but swapping a drive by wire engine into a car that came carbureted will be complicated. What would be some possible solutions for this?
I wouldn't go near the rb20 tbh, they don't have near the potential of the rb25 and they only a tad cheaper also. Mind you they not bad engines but they produce no torque until about 4500rpm and they less powerful than a sr20 and about 70kg heavier.
Broswick I assume it's not a terribly difficult swap, right? Swap-wise, do you know if there are any big differences between the first gen and second gen CRX? My buddy has a first-gen CRX Si with a LOT of miles, and when it kicks the bucket I want him to do a B16 swap.
Wait a minute , that photo in example is 1UZ-FE swap into Toyota 86 ?!
Can you tell me what transmission , bellhousing , clutch/flywheels , and ECU , that it use ?
@Jay Besides the obvious wiring changes and additions that will be necessary, and the traditional problems to solve with interfacing a modern ECU with a OEM dash (if that's the goal), you'll need to retain the factory ECU to input the drive-by-wire pedal signal and output a throttle body control signal. There's also the option of using an aftermarket ECU that can be mapped for drive-by-wire, or ditching the drive-by-wire throttle body and swapping a cable butterfly.
If you've got the other issues figured out and are sticking with the OEM ECU and throttle body, the only part that differs is retrofitting the OEM throttle pedal to the chassis, or removing the OEM sensor and retrofitting it to the stock pedal, or using a compatible aftermarket pedal (some companies like Lokar make them for GM/Ford/Mopar engines, for example).
Being drive-by-wire isn't actually that difficult, it's mostly the other subsystems that need the most work, and that's more about being a modern engine than being drive-by-wire
Is this what you're asking?
Andre Simon GranttMbcnz There are devices out there that will perform those conversions, made for the hot rod world. They input a modern digital speedo signal, condition the signal and perform math functions for ratio/speed conversion, and output using a stepper motor drive to rotate the stock speedometer cable drive. The only difficult part (relatively speaking) may be making an adapter from the digital/mechanical converter to couple to the OEM speedo drive, because I doubt many people have used it with a Mercedes application.
@RoadsterMan It's probably the simplest DOHC swap you could do. It's not easy but with guidance it's manageable. It's also the cheapest. A B16A3 for example might set you back $500-$1000 and you'd get 200hp. Makes the CRX feel better too. Not just some underpowered USDM ripoff. I'd recommend doing some forum hopping.
VW Golf Mk6 R with a RB26 engine. Think about the amazing dsg shift sounds that will produce.
RDS I haven't been involved with the engine swap mechanicals so all I can tell you is that it's using a Toyota R154 gearbox. The ECU is a MoTeC M150.
Andre Simon Throw in big-endian or little-endian for multi-byte signals, plus signal offsets and scalars to keep signals within an 8- or 16-bit numeric range, signed and unsigned integers, etc., and it's even more fun to decode...
RDS Don't be scared of the mechanical parts; pick a transmission that will physically fit and will mate to your engine, and don't get hung up on reusing the OEM transmission with a bunch of crazy adapters and cobbled together clutch components. You have the luxury of a RWD chassis to start with, which is perfect.
It's like any other RWD swap, you need to make the transmission fit through the firewall and transmission tunnel, figure out the proper driveshaft joint angles, support it properly, and get a custom driveshaft made.
And get the shifter working...
Andre Simon yeah I see what you mean. What I meant was I do not like seeing all of the same swaps. I see LS and JZ engines in everything these days. Don't get me wrong these engines are not bad but one day I thought about the viper v10 and how awesome it would be to see that swapped into a car. V10's sound amazing, make great power and are awesome. granted they are usually more expensive that V8's but still its an awesome idea. Don't get me started on the S85. i love that engine! im hoping to get that into either a e36 or e46 like the driftworks e46 BUT i found out that the S85 mates up to the e90 tranny which Im guessing it would make the swap easier
Well Andre, a little over 10 years ago you did my first dream swap for me - a K20A into an EK4. Nowadays I'm curs...uh...blessed with a young family, so I'd say right about now a VK56 into my VQ35-powered M35 Stagea would be a bit of a dream. No idea how easy Nissan have made it but they have plenty of VK-powered options in VQ-powered cars so there's bound to be a mix-and-match solution.
Sadly it's unlikely to happen until I can flick off some assets. Looking to buy a house?
Come to think of it, I'm not fussy, any VK-series engine will do...
GranttMbcnz Luckily Nissan RB/SR swaps are as common as mud (at least where I'm from) so there should be plenty of info on the net. Most of it is pretty straight forward, Nissan RB/SR's use fairly straight forward electronics in my experience. If you run into trouble then google is your friend, there will usually be an answer to your question somewhere on the internet when it comes to these engines.
devildog1775 Probably around 10k I would say accounting for bumps along the way and surprises with the donor engine and your current car. 20k + if you take it to a shop and tell them to do it for you, including buying the parts.
@naim VB325 Wow! i wonder what they did to that little m103 to make it scream like that.
Andre Simon
Ah , so it throw away the stock ECU ; So , the VVT-i still functional with MoTeC M150 ?
Toyota R154 , I'm guessing aftermarket off-the-shelf custom bellhousing then ? Because I do found there is company made custom bellhousing that mate R154 with Toyota UZ engine(s) ... with that , at least I could know what is the rest of the stuff is going (basically able to utilise whatever other R154 is used) .
@fabrik8
I have a friend who had planned a 1UZ-swap E28 for quite sometime already , but he have problem finding a right & strong transmission to use ... and then there's also a problem with clutch (which mostly not cheap) , as well as no matching bellhousing .
The problem with 1UZ , which I guess most other V8 probably won't have , is not having matching bell-housing to match a manual transmission ... you always need custom made .
@Jay I built an adapter plate for a 1UZ cable operated throttle body onto my Beams 3SGE into an AE86 conversion. Throat diameters are the same, and far more simple. Am using an Adaptronic e420d ECU.
I used these images as a guide from someone who had done the same thing:
http://s65.photobucket.com/user/AL_RS/media/Beams%20KE55/KE55Beams002.jpg.html
http://s65.photobucket.com/user/AL_RS/media/Beams%20KE55/KE55Beams005.jpg.html
Thanks for the info. Yes plan on using the nissan gearbox and current gearbox is electronic but shouldn't be to hard to ywith abit of research.
Im definitely more likely to go down the path of 25det or sr. As you stated not much deference in price and both have far more potential
My dream swap is a 1JZ in a S14, something I will hopefully have in a year or so!
So, did that Viper/RX-7 get a sponsor for a new motor?
(Google translate figured it was Norwegian or Swedish... So, Gatebil?)
Oh thank you i have been waiting for years for someone in the industry to say these things .. any engine can go in any car with fabrication but to make it work with the electronics required is on another playing field that not many will take ....
guys be like oh i know that who can wire it but in reality stuff might be left out and of course there are some guys who know what they are doing ... but what about the rest ? hmmm ...
but i got to give props to the guys who do the impossible swap first hand n go all out to make it work n then build stuff for the normal person to explore with ... the things these guys do to make sure they get it right if not perfect ... cause at the end of the day, tuning is what makes sure u leave point A n reach point B with no troubles .....
thanks for the info n straight up talk to everyone .... the idea here is not to discourage anyone but its for them to do there reasearch n know the how, why and when it works in conjunction with everything ....just like building an engine everything works with one another ....
props to the guys who do the stuff that half of us would not even attempt .......
Barra turbo into, anything with more character and than a tarted up taxi...Mercury Cougar perhaps?
zemanski you're right, the mechanical side is in many ways the easy part. It's not even a case of just the wiring now though because just connecting the correct wires doesn't necessarily mean the correct signals will be present. Of course anything can be made to look like it's working at a casual glance but to have a complex modern engine swap working 100% as factory with air conditioning, idle control, working gauges and cruise control takes a lot of effort and skill.
It does however mean that those who put in the effort engine swapping a modern car will stand out from the crowd.
Ryan Olson a 1JZ or 2JZ swap into an S14 is a great and well proven recipe!
Yeah i was trying to figure out how i could incorporate the factory 3sge ecu temporarily until i can wire up a standalone system and run a proper tune
CJC_Matty Hey Matty! I remember that swap well. It's certainly become a bunch easier to do these days and a bunch more popular. Yes, family life will slow down the car stuff - i know this well
A VK56 is a solid option into just about anything. They're a great motor with huge potential although over this side of the world they still command a decent price. Trademe that house bro and get back in the game
RDS yes you remove the stock ECU and the MoTeC takes over. VVTi is still 100% functional with the MoTeC ECU.
I'm not sure what was done for a bellhousing on this car as we didn't do the mechanical installation. In NZ there is a company called Niteparts/Convert Motorsport who make bellhousings and flywheels for many of the popular Toyota engine conversions - http://convertmotorsport.co.nz/conversion-parts/
This makes it a lot more easier for me in the long run. How user friendly is adaptronic? Ive mostly messed with aem infinity and f/ic. But wanted to try something else
i just wondering, is change the ECU to piggyback or stand alone when doing engine swap is necessary? i have R25DET nissan cefiro with stock RB25 ECU. still having engine problem which my mechanic cannot solve though
@Jay Found it quite straight forward, and their support was great whenever I wasn't sure. Had mine professionally tuned after I got it running reasonably myself. Can use their software without buying the hardware here:
http://www.adaptronic.com.au/downloads/
And they have multiple base maps for the Beams 3SGE:
http://www.adaptronic.com.au/forum/index.php?topic=4747.0
Having had the chance to pedal a few C63's at work, the m156 would definitely be the engine of choice for my r32 skyline sedan.
They love to rev, like many of the euro v8's, but the extra 2L of displacement gives them much more punch down low.
They sound pretty sweet too.
Top tier article, keep this level up guys.
Andre Simon
Is the 1UZ going to be just left stock ? I'm surprised it use M150 , I just Google about it , it wasn't much a "budget option" thought !
I did Google deeper about 1UZ using 5MT , it seems there is either custom bellhousing , or mate the 1UZ's automatic bellhousing with the R154/W58 .
NikkSquidBonnett look good, sound good, but grenades apparently. there was going to be a class action law suit.
This is becoming a problem. But there's still a lot of older swaps that are viable. For instance I'm doing a RB26 with AWD into a '75 280Z. It updates the antique 2 valves per cylinder NA with a more modern engine. The manual trans is not computer controlled. The ATTESA is somewhat of a problem but solved with a ECU from FullRace.
RDS Andre Simon
Niteparts bellhousing, flywheel and clutch kit, jzx110 R154 with extended shifter housing, n130 hilux slave cylinder
I have already installed an s54 engine (e46 M3) in a Euro M3 e36 chassis, the thing is after pairing the MSS54 ECU and all that I can only turn the car on twice, after that it just won't start... any ideas??? thanks!
Great article! Too bad in some countries (like mine!) the law doesn't allow us to do these changes (upgrades!) in order to keep it street legal!
you guys should do a feature on this engine swap. guess the combo.
aaronweirtech
I would love to get a Datsun 240z and swap in a 12 rotor rotary (yes there is such a thing, look it up) and make it a drift car. That would be awesome in my opinion, or maybe swap in the Datsun race motor.
I've always wanted to waste a whole lot of time and money swapping an SH-AWD RL drivetrain and J series into a four door em2 and building a rally car. Ideally I would mate the SH-AWD to a 6 speed K20, but I have no Idea if there is a transfer case to even make that possible...
jdizzlemo Vega Asterion oh damnnnn, that's awesome, I have never heard of this before. Thanks for posting that!
AaronWeir
http://www.livefyre.com/profile/30034997/ just posted the link to the forum where the build for this CRX is located. That's one of my dreams right there! F20C swap and RWD conversion, but I would prefer a 92-95 hatch or even an EK. Nevertheless that is amazing!
Link:
http://www.realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/index.php/topic,126.570.html?PHPSESSID=d61snbm56tnebcdlkqqd8num64
20v turbo with the awd drivetrain in a BMW e28 would be crazy.
K20z3 in a Honda CR-Z
Why not an RB?
T Rad I've got a soft spot for anything 4AGE and turbo so I'm all for this
Haydos.W I'd pay good money to hear that banging the limiter!
AaronWeir that is a pretty epic engine swap Aaron! I just blew an hour checking out the build thread. Nice work! It's a shame some of the older photos are broken links now.
Afonsoae82gt here in NZ we can get away with a lot when it comes to engines swaps. Unfortunately it is getting harder though.
NikkSquidBonnett that would be an interesting combo for sure!
@Radit It depends on your engine swap. If you're swapping an older engine without the complexities of CAN then there is no reason why you can't swap in the ECU to suit the new engine too and save on the cost of an aftermarket ECU. I wouldn't advise running an RB25DET on an RB25 DE ECU though - It won't have the correct mapping for a turbo engine.
Andre Simon T Rad I was talking about the Audi inline 5 turbo. but I love me a 4AGE too!
i would love to swap a honda k20 or a 2.4 k-series from the 2015 civic si with a f20 trans adater into a F-RS(SORRY GT86)with 1 of those new borgwarner EFR turbos
I would love to swap an EJ20G and STI drivetrain into an MX-5. Its different I know, but i think it would make one helluva car
Same problem.
I've made an opel carlton running with a 2.2litre engine fom a s10 truck, it is a drift project car and starts once a day, I noticed that the fuel pressure is too high when I try to start it again and that's why it doesn't start so I have to push it down the street. I don't know why is this happening but i'm getting really pissed and thinking about changing the ECU for a twin carburator kit.
Awesome article full of very useful knowledge and tips as the previous ones. It would be great on a future post since you talk about the Can Protocol on this article to talk about Car Hacking and the vulnerabilities of the current crop of cars that rely more and more on softwares, electronics and Wireless connectivity. Because is already happening and is fully possible today with the right know how and tools to hack into cars using exploit backdoors like your satellite radio subscriptions, gps or other Media that are install in your car and well take control of your car from a computer any where in the world. As car keep getting smarter and more dependent on advance softwares the possibilities of let say steal your vehicle or even take full command of your engine, ac, radio, braking system etc is becoming a Real and Dangerous treath. And I think will be a great subject for you guys to talk.
An SR20DET in a Suzuki Cappuccino has always been something I have wanted to see/do. Touge weapon
Beaubot
Extended shifter housing ? 86's shifter is sit further backward than X-chassis ?
BackroadSam Why sr20det? Why not f20c, instant power in light pacage and takes less space...
Yeah... I'm thinking of a race ecu... Something like a MoTec to cut the problem and use the car once and for all... It's been like this since november
RDS Had to move the stick further back as firewall wasnt modified to house the v8
Mazda K8-ZE or KF-ZE in an AW11 MR2 or one of the Mazda K engines (2 litres+) in a W20 MR2. Why? Budget NSX.
Into my first car, a '92 Accord sedan, I had swapped a '97 Prelude H22A. Gain of about 75hp at the flywheel, and left stock it was a model of reliability. I now have that engine torn apart while I collect parts for a mild all-motor build; hoping for about 240 at the wheels. It's going into a wagon version of that same Accord!
As for a dream swap, I'd love to put a 13B into an NA Miata.
Currently doing an EG33 swap into a 96 Outback. It's already lowered using WRX wagon lowering parts and fitted with Saabaru wheels and 15 WRX spec tires. It'll be a fun backroad warrior.
5sgte on a st165
5 dreams
- Classic mini (pre 75, I live in CA). K24 block, k20 head, rdx k23 drivetrain, ct s charger, custom rear subframe. AWD, smog test free, 1400ish lb fun machine.
-Ls7 na or nb miata...highly doable
-5 cyl/entire drivetrain from TT rs, grafted into a mk1 golf or early polo
-1972 Ferrari/Dino, with an Alfa Romeo Busso V6
-964 Porsche c4, twin turbo ls3, Mendeola g50.....it fits
@abussa I was thinking about it one of these days, lol! Have an intercontinental hi5!
I am converting my 626 to rwd. I have a forged engine and a turbo and e100 at the fuel pump, but i would love to stuff in an NA VH or VK (nissan v8) engine!
Hey friend
I've been working on the car and just found a solution, so the problem was too much pressure at the fuel sistem before the engine starts, and I need that pressure when running
I installed a switch to turn the temperature sensor off and fool the ECU as I start it and when the engine starts i switch the sensor back on and everything runs ok, you can try taking the sensor wire out and tryimg to start to se if it works for you to.
In my car i have to keep it always off when the engine is off, if I turn on and turn the key half way on even if I don't try to start the engine it will start only tomorrow. So, I can turn the switch on only with the engine running and I have to turn off befor le turning the engine off
Thats the sensor of the little piece of shit
jbfromsiliconvalley I like your thinking there! A few of those would have some purists up in arms - The LS/964 for example
BrandonCurry sounds like a great combination!
PirateWill I've always had a soft spot for the AW11 for some weird reason. Even with a mildly tweaked 4AGZE they can be quite rewarding when driven on the limit.
BackroadSam now that is a conversion I'd like to see! I'd hate to be the poor mechanic who needed to do the oil change on it though - That would be a TIGHT install!
@abussa You're right, it's different but it would make for an interesting result for sure.
uncle rick that would be a pretty wild combination! It would make a refreshing change from the 2JZ swaps getting around and undoubtedly offer a better weight split.
T Rad ah my bad! I tend to have a slight JDM slant on most things so forgive my assumption there
Andre Simon Oh yeah, I was helping a friend with their track prepped AW11 and had to just reverse it into the garage and it just felt "right" (albeit with a duff idle control valve, so it idles at 2000rpm). It's a weekend car for the future I reckon.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4OOtH5hkHk
It was the #26 car, heh.
Beaubot
Ah , I see .
I'd hope to see more progress of the 86 .
The in-house swap interest me the most .
Andre Simon jbfromsiliconvalley
...as would the Dino IMHO!!!!
VB325 Sorry for the late reply.
I think it is stock - turbobandit is known for putting huge turbos on (mostly) stock merc engines, turning them into cruise missiles.
He is getting decent results with M104+megasquirt+boost as well
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZ6_4u2280Q
Nick. Its WAAAAY easier to score parts, and they're less expensive.
Ah, good point. I threw out the RB reallllll quick on my own project when I priced things out. I didn't realize the 1/2jz's were cheaper.
GranttMbcnz RB25DET is probably the most worthwhile motor from a financial standpoint I would think. Would be an awesome swap!
Would be a wicked swap. Definitely one of a kind. Seen a guys over seas do it to a c class and man that thing was loose
Meanwhile my friend is trying to fit a toyota 1UZ-FE into a '52 Ford Prefect...
I'm actually in the middle of swapping a version 7 ej207 into a 2001 Subaru 2.5rs
Here's the two Datsun 280z's I built. One has a Ford 302 (5.0 V8) and the other, which is my current daily, has a 1UZFE (4.0 V8). Not exactly easy swaps like a Subaru engine into another Subaru lol.
Great article! I always wondered how to couple the different management systems to a stand alone.
jbfromsiliconvalley "Americans"
Newer car swaps are boring. A big ol 440 or even a 351c should be enough power, as should older turbocharged rotaries, rb's, 4ages, 3sges. It all comes down to the application. For instance - does that Mk3 Triumph Spitfire really need a v8? I would rather keep stuff in line with the factory and not deviate too much.
I'm considering putting a 1.0 ecoboost into an older car (like. . .1970's old) so this is the kind of thing I need to see more of. The CAN system is one of the main problems I was looking at, along with the fact it's a direct injection engine so I'd need to figure injector drivers. . .unfortunately those issues temporarily put me off but if there's a sensible way around them I'd be interested in looking into it more
If you can't use the oem ecu, look at the mega-squirt systems. It's a cost effective solution with many options.
The hard part is getting started. Just start, put some money into and you'll have a reason to follow through.
Nick. Yeah the only thing is MS doesn't do direct injection as far as I'm aware which unfortunately kinda rules it out. There seems to only be a handful of systems that will do it and unfortunately they're all way out of my budget
Story of my life...
Andre Simon Haydos.W thanks man
Great article, very inspiring actually. My main fear in my swap is eletronics (even though neither the motor or car have much eletronics involved). For exemple my engine is a 2ACT (a.k.a. Lança Delta Ingrale motor) and my carris 97' Fiat Palio (3º world car - according to Fiat anyways), and from a pshycall point ir fits, but thr only point lacking is the choosing the ECU. Which one would you go for in a project like that?
Sr20ve swap in 09 Nissan Versa sedan it's my daily driver not any support for this swap its gona be all custom
Sr20ve swap in 09 Nissan Versa sedan it's my daily driver not any support for this swap its gona be all custom
I have a stock EVO 3 and want to drop in a full evo 9 motor loom, my mechanic says it can't be done due to the wiring but I reckon it can.
What do you guys think?
Anything can be done. It's not a matter of "can't", rather the "want".
Very informative article for those not familiar with CAN/BUS. Really the easiest way to complete an engine swap nowadays in a modern car is to go standalone ECU, like the MOTEC M1 being used here, using a MOTEC dash or other third party data display, and pinning out the rest of the sensors necessary for the car to run, drive, and stop. I know with MOTEC you can program any kind of OEM performance features you want into it, such as launch control, traction control, etc. MOTEC ECU's support so many different inputs that you really can do just about anything with them.
Very informative article for those not familiar with CAN/BUS. Really the easiest way to complete an engine swap nowadays in a modern car is to go standalone ECU, like the MOTEC M1 being used here, using a MOTEC dash or other third party data display, and pinning out the rest of the sensors necessary for the car to run, drive, and stop. I know with MOTEC you can program any kind of OEM performance features you want into it, such as launch control, traction control, etc. MOTEC ECU's support so many different inputs that you really can do just about anything with them.
That would be awesome.. I'm currently working on swapping the Pilot 4WD trans and rear diff along with a J32A2 from my old CL into a CRV. It's been a bit of a headache, but it's coming along. I'm going to lift it a bit and turn it into a fun little pre-runner type car.
Good article, it definitely seems to be a real issue to overcome. My ideal swap would be the S65 V8 out of an E9x M3 into my E46 M3. 8000+rpm V8 that weighs less than the I6 that's in there? yes please. The electronics seem to be a reaaal nightmare though, apparently it's much easier to get an S62 V8 out of an E39 M5 to play ball, as they are from the same era.
Good article, it definitely seems to be a real issue to overcome. My ideal swap would be the S65 V8 out of an E9x M3 into my E46 M3. 8000+rpm V8 that weighs less than the I6 that's in there? yes please. The electronics seem to be a reaaal nightmare though, apparently it's much easier to get an S62 V8 out of an E39 M5 to play ball, as they are from the same era.
I'm doing a 5.0 coyote swap in my s13 just need a trans.
Nate Spring Ah, an S30 fan. Sweet rides. Would love to do an LQ/LS swap in mine once my VG33 (pictured) explodes.
Nate Spring Ah, an S30 fan. Sweet rides. Would love to do an LQ/LS swap in mine once my VG33 (pictured) explodes.
1GZ-FE in gt86. With hand built with lighter/stronger forged internals, sleeved block 83mm pistons 5200cc (normally 5000cc) displacement 13:1 compression. Race ported head and custom cams by bisimoto. 60mm kinsler ITB with a pair of motec ecu, full titanium exhaust, with 6-1 headers. Also dry sumped. 6 speed tremac transmission with carbon tail shaft. Maybe build a custom diff or use a supra type???
As the length is similar to a 1/2JZ just wider I think the 1GZ should fit without issues as long as the unnecessary stuff is removed from engine(like a mega wire tuck). Power goal is 750whp. Toyota badge is.also cool but not the main reason to choose this underrated, light and compact v12.
Great post Andre. I always wanted to know more about the WHOLE process involved in engine swaps, particularly in the case of the 86/BRZ. I know its a stupidly pricey plan but I do hope to swap in a S65B40 V8 from the BMW E9x M3s into a 86/BRZ one day. If that time comes, I'll definitely contact you if I have any queries.
So overall if you were swapping an engine, you're not really swapping the engine but you're swapping a whole array of parts that will should accommodate the new engine better right? If this is kinda a noob question sorry lol.
So overall if you were swapping an engine, you're not really swapping the engine but you're swapping a whole array of parts that will should accommodate the new engine better right? If this is kinda a noob question sorry lol.
Oh and which is more pricier, all out modifying an engine (part prices, running prices and all) or an engine swap? Not to like a specific car but overall
Oh and which is more pricier, all out modifying an engine (part prices, running prices and all) or an engine swap? Not to like a specific car but overall
sexualchocolate First question. You are really swapping the engine (and usually gearbox too as it's easier to make a custom tailshaft than custom engine / gearbox interface) and the whole network connected to it. Clutch lines, shifter cables, vaccum hoses - it goes on.
Second question. Say you had a 1600cc engine and your options are to spend the same amount of money working on it or putting in a 2L. Yes it looks great, sounds racey, feels like a built motor if you work on it but then you have limited options to continue. If you swap over a factory 2L then get bored you can do work to that bigger engine. My opinion is swap to the format you'd like to end up with at the start so you don't spend money twice.
90nissanS13@my350z That's what I was thinking
How much do you like painstakingly following and testing wires
Right
Still, i'd rather make/modify a new harness then to repair an old, worn harness. That to me is patching a bald tire.
blake83 sounds like an epic project there! One thing I'll point out is that you could potentially run this beast with a single MoTeC M150 ECU as they can control up to 12 cylinder engines
Am I correct in assuming that a significant portion (if not the majority) of the increase in car prices and weights over the last decade or so has been in electronics and the wiring that goes along with them? Because whoever said that the LS engine wasn't designed to look "pretty" when all wired up in an engine bay has never seen under the covers of an Audi RS car. Those things are wiring NIGHTMARES.
I have a '48 Ford Prefect in the family, sad and forgotten down the back in a shed. As much as I would like to keep it Ford in thinking a Nissan CA18 would be a good swap value for money... Unless there's a Ford (affordable, not cosworth) 4 banger out there for it...? Any ideas?
366848135 Thats a really good idea. As much as the S54 sounds amazing (particularly with the CSL's Carbon air box), the S65 sounds just as epic in a different way. I'm surprised that there haven't been any S65 conversions on the E46 M3s on the interwebs so far. As you said, they are 33lbs lighter (being aluminium block) and they take up less space compared to the iron block straight 6. Owners say that S65s have more reliable VANOS systems than in the S54 too. Go to this guy's channel, https://www.youtube.com/user/H50M346/videos?sort=dd&view=0&shelf_id=0 he has videos of an S62 swapped E46 M3
3sgte im an R53 Mini. Just the engine. Ill get an adapter plate for the trans......yes..no?
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could i put a 4.6out of a cadillac sts in my 2011 camaro they have the same trans already the 6l50
i have the v6 auto
Swapping a 2004 5.3 l33 from a 1500 with a t56 from an 2007 vette, with a m3 LSD into a 2002 325i e46
A friend has swapped a Toyota 2jz engine in to a Mercedes w202 AMG and have a big can signal problem now and the dashbord warninglights is also glowing as a christmas tree.And of course nothing work exept the engine. Is there anyone who ha some good ideas out there? My friend do not know anything about can signals so i will try to help him.
I'm swapping a 4.7 with a 5.7 litre hemi into my 2005 dodge ram 1500. This model came with the choice of either motor but they have a few differences. The ac, motor mounts,throttle body and ecm are different. My question is, if I just switch my ecm with an ecm built for a 5.7, will it work with my trucks system or will there be a ton of work to make it work
Preparing to do an Abarth 500 engine swap into Panda 100hp. I will be using the ecu from the abarth engine. The the cars are similar in many ways but I'm wondering whether the normal car key will work with the abarth ecu? Also wonder Willi need to swap out the wiring looms in the dash and engine because I'm going from N/A to turbo
s65 v8 into an s2000
I have a 88 Bonneville with a great 3.8 less than 85 thousand miles, it has coil packs. I also have a 88 fiero with a bad smaller V6 it has a distributor, what would I have
to change in the fiero.ECU,ETC.?