Discussion: Red Bull Drama At F1 Malaysia

This weekend, Formula 1 headed to Sepang Circuit for the second round of the 2013 season, and what unfolded was a race filled with both on-track drama and some very uncomfortable moments between team-mates. The biggest of these was of course between first and second place finishers Sebastian Vettel and Mark Webber of Red Bull Racing.

With 10 laps to go, Webber was in P1 leading the second place Vettel  with team orders to conserve pace and ensure the 1-2 finish. Sebastian had other ideas. He battled Webber hard, and after some hair-raising wheel to wheel action, passed his team-mate to take P1 and the eventual victory. Mark’s reaction was immediate, throwing up the one-finger salute after Vettel made the pass.

Vettel eventually apologized to his team-mate in the post race press conference, saying he should have obeyed the team and held his position behind Webber.

Webber on the other hand has not been so quick to forgive.

So with all the controversy that followed Sunday’s race, we thought we should open a little discussion so you guys can voice your opinions on what happened. What do you think about team orders F1? Was Vettel wrong to overtake? Should it be every driver for himself? Perhaps more importantly, what should Mark Webber do next?

We’ve also thrown in a poll to get your thoughts on what you’d do if you were in Webber’s shoes.

-Mike

(Photos from Red Bull Racing)

[polldaddy poll="6990059"]

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148 comments
weasel
weasel

F1 politics is worse than watching American datyime TV.

If I were Mark Webber, I would have sprayed more champagne in Vettels eyes on the podium, and then took a dump in his sleeping quarters where he wouldnt know it until he got cozy in the sheets.

N1SMO
N1SMO

In my dream scenario Webber should have smashed Vettel's face in....but that is only a pipedream to when men were still men and nobody wore crash helmets. I think it was too early in the season to be giving team orders,the season is still very long.Vettel was also wrong because he already knew Webber had turned won his motor when he started making comments that webber is slow over the radio. i then already knew what he was planning and just hoped they didn't crash into each other. I think he showed cowardice by choosing to overtake when he already knew webber has turned down his motor. The team also should have let webber know Vettel is still running on a stronger map so he maybe could have defended harder. but it's a team sport,and Webber is a good nr.2 since he joined the team. Respect for him to not have made even a bigger scene. 

 

VETTEL JY IS N POES

cornerbalance
cornerbalance

Silverstone 2010 - look at the last few laps, then Webber's comments last year pre-Brazil, where the championship was actually up for grabs, and then Vettel's decision makes more sense....and why the team orders made no real sense in the first place (my opinion only)

brmasson07
brmasson07

Although I don't really agree with Vettel going against team orders, I have to applaud him for his hunger and wanting that victory. It was clear he had the fastest car, and with the opportunity to pick up another win, he jumped on it. Really, we should be looking at the reason for why the team order for Webber to take victory was given. The only logical reason to me, was that Alonso was already out of the race, so Vettel was going to increase his gap over the next best championship contender anyways, and Webber was in the rare position of his as a #2 driver to win a race on the year, so RBR probably thought, "why not give him the victory?" Because let's be honest here, Webber is obviously the #2 driver in that camp, he's on his last peak years as an F1 driver and he'll probably take all that he can get right now in terms of victories and accolades. Really this just shows the problem F1 has in terms of political management and how teams run races, because unlike NASCAR, NHRA, IndyCar, endurance racing and other forms of motorsport where teams run multiple cars, F1 is really the only one that stands out where they have a driver with the main priority over the other one, and this leads to instances like Senna and Prost for McLaren and Schumacher and Barrichello for Ferrari, and it's a huge blemish for the sport in terms of competition. How do you fix this then? The only logical solution to that is to get rid of the second car, but you have a better chance of winning the Powerball than that happening...

Golightly
Golightly

As if RBR is going to dish out a punishment to a guy that gave them 3 WDCs and was the larger contributing factor in their 3 WCCs. Should Vettel have ignored the orders? No. Should the orders have been given? No. Vettel is a champion, he's not going to take 2nd when he -knows- he can have 1st. The team shouldn't have put him in that position, regardless of their reasoning. The TEAM still gets the same points. The NUMBER 1 driver gets his deserved 25. This is the best outcome for RBR. Vettel shouldn't have had to fight for that position; the order should have been given to Webber to allow the pass. 

tenpennyjimmy
tenpennyjimmy

The team hands out the pay checks to the drivers, but Bernie Ecclestone is the ultimate ringmaster of this circus. He knows - as do we all - that pinch of road rage has always been that little extra spice that makes F1 more interesting... all the more so if the drivers in question drive for the same team. It wouldn't surprise me if Mr Ecclestone encouraged it.

 

Conspiracy theory? Look at wrestling.

MarciDarsiMerkel
MarciDarsiMerkel

It is racing.The driver with the best skills should win.I'm working for Toyota in Germany, Colone.And yes, the F1 is more showbiz than real racing.But in my opinion Vettel has done it right to overtake Webber. I hate team orders like this one,but sometimes the engineers,which want to keep up the good work,are only victims of some stupid management.

calzyB
calzyB

If Vettle does not get punishment for this, then Red Bull must throw out all team orders because they would be showing no accountability for not following them. I don't care either way, but it is in the best interest of the team (the people with all the $) not to have both their cars crash into each other. On the other hand, it is the best interest of the fan to watch evenly matched cars battle at the end of the race. Also, I thought team orders were illegal anyway?? Example: the team could not order driver A to let driver B pass him. How is the scenario that happened on Sunday not an extension of that?

Jason Hardy
Jason Hardy

Team orders are team orders, no one is bigger than the team, in the case of mark webber he should of ran him off the road untill they collided, vettel should never have put his car in a position to get past mark in the first place. This weekend vettel showed a new side to his personalitly and its not one i like. I can understand that as a team you want a tenacious racer who will always fight for the win but what if that driver doesnt know how to take an order? Vettel will beat Webber in the championship this year anyway, thats a given but if he wants Marks help for the title later in the season has he just burned his bridges? lets say webber needs to keep alonso at bay for vettel to take the title again? I think webber would just move over, i know i would!

PierrotLeFou
PierrotLeFou

I hope this does not end in a "Senna-Prost" scenario. It's gonna be another sad chapter in F1 history if that happens.

Scotty
Scotty

Vettel is a piece of shit, not a lot more needs to be said.

 

Gio_001
Gio_001

The major  fact is that Vettel ignored the TEAM BOSS order ! Unless he is in command of the team and we don't know it... All the rests are minor.  If you can't trust your driver's (as a team) then you can't talk about a team, it's a playground. If you can't control your drivers then something is going wrong with your team. If there was no order everything would be fine: may the best and faster win. But since there was an order from the team for BOTH drivers they had to respect it. Vettel didn't. I don't care if he is faster or not, the fact is if the team can trust him or not. What would happen if we were close to the end of season, Webber was going for the champion and Vettel was ignoring orders from the team? Either you work for a team or else make your own and race in any way you want.

DavidRussell1
DavidRussell1

Webber fought back and won after he got after the pits on colder harder tyres, then they were told to cool it ans conserve their cars so Webber turned down his engine and kers and this is when Vettel past him, some have said that its ok because Schumacher and Senna would have done the same and ignored the orders no to pass, but the truth is they would have never have been given the orders not to pass in the first place so it would have been a fair fight, that is what makes this different.  Vettel has forgotten all the times that Webber helped him to his championship wins despite the fast that Vettel has hit Webber off twice during his career already (Turkey and Japan(under safety car)) Webber should just act in his own interest from now on and not co-operate with Vettel again 

willyra
willyra

wow this is good i like to know:

-what if you are in the position if hamilton? what will you do? will you to tell the team hey let he pass me i am slow because i can't save the fuel.

-and what if you in the position of webber? what will you do? when team say that both of you to hold position then of course you will drive easy to save the tire, suddenly vettel coming up to your side...what you gonna do?

 

it will be different if red bull say both of driver free to take 1 or 2 position as long as car didn't DNF, webber will not let vettel catch him up,

why vettel can catch him up because webber know vettel will not pass him, but vettel did pass him

 

and for this past 3 years i like vettel he young and talented, but i just lost my respect for him, and of course vettel didn't care we lost our respect or not, not even you he even didn't care what team say to him on the race

Jockycalvert
Jockycalvert

Webber was obeying  team orders. He shouldn't be, in ANY way, scrutinised for this. But Vettel is obviously very insecure and cant handle being in second!! Poor move by him, makes him look very selfish.

Slowik
Slowik

Webber fought and lost to Vettel becouse he was slower. He should fought back immediately if he could! That is RACING for f**k sake! Team of course should hold them back A LITTLE to not wreck the cars, and get precious 1-2 victory, but giving orders is not fair in my opinion, at least not on the 2nd race! But i think way more harmed on that GP was Nico Rosberg who obeyed to team order to not pass Hamilton who on last 2 laps was WAAAAAY slower becouse of fuel saving. HOW UNFAIR IS THAT?!  

greenroadster
greenroadster

What do you think about team orders F1?

I don't like them if they are interfering with whos winning.

Was Vettel wrong to overtake?

Very wrong because he put Webber in a very unconfortable position - teams order was not to fight but was given a fight that he can not win.

 

If I was Webber, I wouldnt let Vettel pass again in my life, regardless of tems interest. Or Vettel integrity of the car.

MaxMotter
MaxMotter

It's a championship. I feel like as long as the two drivers took a 1-2 finish, who cares who came first? I think this is indicative of F1's overbearing political environment. At the end of the day, it's a race. #nocompromise

MasonK
MasonK

Overall as a driver, you sign your contract to race for the team. Not yourself! But however this is disregarded in the eyes of the drivers themselves. That is, because this is racing and that is what a driver does! So all in all as a teammate Webber did the right thing by obeying orders and Vettel as a teammate disregarded orders. However, Webber being a driver should of just raced as what a driver and a winner does such as his teammate Vettel!

this.guy.said
this.guy.said

Realistically looking down the grid who could repalce webber and do as well or better as a team mate to vettel, I mean they would come in knowing red bull will expect results but they will always be #2 to vettel until vettel gets too old and thers new talent to secure. I place the blame on mark webbers engineer really he should have warned him about vettels pace since he can see data from both cars and im pretty sure he could see that vettel was disobeying orders. If I were webber I would have said F it and gone for broke and hope so if I didnt finish or got disqualfied for fuel it would have been on the horner and the engineers for not controlling vettel.

bigjoe
bigjoe

I like somebodysb21....the man has been putting some of the lesser knowledgeable ppl straight lol. On another note, even Hamilton didn't like how the race ended due to his team orders. Funny thing is he was consistently faster than Rosberg for the entire race...give or take 3/4 laps where Rosberg was marginally faster and YET, had to basically coast for 12-15 laps near the end. I understood Rosberg's frustration but if Hamilton didn't have to conserve fuel, there's no way in hell he was going to keep up with Hamilton (remember Hamilton was actually in 2nd place and in front of Vettel when the shit hit the fan)...it was a sad weekend for F1

bigjoe
bigjoe

I think 777 hit the nail on the head with that post. It really can't get anymore honest than that.

bigjoe
bigjoe

Fkitbtn: How long have you been watching F1? F1 is as much a business as it is a sport. Team tactics and orders have been employed in F1 since the 70's; and men have been breaking those rules since then as well. Therefore your outburst really isn't valid or make sense. MANY times Webber has been told to hold position over the years to allow Vettel to win or not give chase so that there would be no unnecessary risks taken. Have you all forgotten when both Vettel and Webber crashed due to a similar incident only 2 years ago? YES, you're a racing driver who wants to win, but in the end if you're part of a TEAM and the TEAM called a shot so as to achieve MAXIMUM points for the TEAM and NOT have their two drivers race AND have a repeat of the past; then you should obey.Vettel was NOT getting close enough to pass Webber within that race. When he finally got close to him and said over the team radio "Mark is too slow, tell him move over", Mark put a 3 seconds distance between them. He was told to conserve his tyres, hence why Vettel had caught him at that point. Otherwise, Webber was clearly keeping his race pace and distance throughout the race UNTIL the team told him to slow down since MERCEDES had slowed their drivers.Red Bull Racing usually lets their drivers race each other throughout the races but the fact that ANYONE who avidly follows F1 will know nothing will come out of this, shows that there has always and will always be a hidden preference to Vettel. What did mark say on the victory stand? "Vettel took matters into his own hands and he will be PROTECTED as USUAL"Barrichello was World Championship material by the way; for TWO years too. There were MANY times at Ferrari that he was cutting EVERYONE including AlONSO'S ass but team orders either came into play OR his car would have problems and he'd retire. There was one year he was even in the chase for the title. So saying that's he's another Barrichello doesn't make sense. Sometimes i honestly think a lot of ppl who have opinions on here are YouTube posters: Have little actual knowledge on something but just love to THINK they actually know something. If you're REALLY into F1 and follow the dirty little secrets as well, you'd know that Webber has ALWAYS had a battle from the time Vettel joined the team from Toro Rosso. From the team taking parts off of his car to put on Vettel's to somehow ONLY Webber's alternator in the 2012 season kept giving trouble and not Vettel....oh the lovely world of F1

somebodysb21
somebodysb21

Webber should accept that he is just another Barrichello. Drivers that aren't World Championship material SHOULD NOT interfere with World Championship drivers.

Silveti
Silveti

honestly i think the best what Mark Webber must do is take it easy with vettel, vettel is young and though he has won 3 times the championship, he still must learn so this will be a good teaching to him, these atitudes will disappear at the time what vettel look how he is growin up he, still with hunger to go, go fast and go first and maybe with this feelin sometimes he make some mistakes but if i be webber  ll take with tranquility the championship are starting, so will be more races to win, also they are teammates i think they should be together.

wanglejangle
wanglejangle

It's fucking RACING you are all pussies and this is woman drama that should not be in F1. Did he break any rules? No. So quit bitching and go back to playing golf, or sit back and enjoy real racing, not a bunch of guys in fast cars acting respectable to let someone that feels entitled to win. It's racing to me, there's no crying, if you see an opening you take it, THE END.

777
777

just an excerpt from fb i tend to think hits the nail on the head"Realistically, there are a couple of points which defined yesterday's race for me: (1) this generation is brought up to believe that winning is everything. Character does not come into it and there are very few role models for these guys in this regard, in motorsport as in life beyond it. This would surely have been a factor in Vettel's 'red mist' yesterday. At every point during the race, he was racing his team mate - that much was obvious. Perhaps when he matures over the years, he will learn to see the bigger picture, but it's a tough ask of a child who has lived almost his entire life with 'winning' being his main objective, to follow his team mate - especially when he has proved to himself and everyone else that he can win dominantly and often. (2) Vettel holds almost ALL the cards in the Red Bull equation and he is smart enough to know it. He wouldn't realize, at this stage and without trying it, that he's not going to step into any other car and be able to win (on present and recent form) as he is able to do at Red Bull. The team is smart enough to know that, if they push the wrong buttons with him - privately or publicly - he will walk. So, don't expect too much 'public relations' post race support for Webber - it's not coming, I am sure. (3) Having spent a decade wondering how Mark Webber got to F1 and, even more than this, how he stayed there, it hit me only a year or so ago that while he may not be in the top echelon of F1 drivers, based on what is visibly and consistently obvious, he is seemingly a damn good, down to earth, unaffected guy who I don't recall ever blowing his own trumpet and who accepts his place relative to the sensational talent of Vettel with inspiring humility. The media 'experts' from day one pumped him up to be the next great thing in F1 and continued to do so long after it was apparent that he was, at best, anything but. They should be forgiven for doing this, as - in the words of my familiar tune - it is all but impossible to tell a great driver from a good one in F1 and this has been increasingly the case for around twenty years. In my opinion, yesterday's race was the drive of Webber's F1 career - without question. He showed that he can take the fight to the best of them and, smartly, gave up when the choice was fighting an unsporting team mate or preserving his life. I don't think that the choice was any more complicated than that, based on Vettel's 'body language' at the wheel. A smart move, imo and it didn't detract from a performance which indicated that he was - on this day - as good as the best out there. Full credit to him and he didn't need to be the winner in my eyes to be the man of the race. (4) For those of us who worship this sport, it seems logical that standing on the podium after a race must be one of the ultimate experiences. When I watched that scene yesterday, it looked like one of the most lonely, frustrating and horrible places to be. Sadly ironic, but that too often is sport these days where money and winning are the only visible goals of greedy minds, corrupted beyond redemption through access to needless amounts of money. F1 has long been, in my opinion, a tragically contrived scene dominated by excessive greed and the misguided sense of self-importance which often flows when too many zero's are added to the cash flows - in and out. As far as motorsport is concerned, these cars alone make it an insult to its rich heritage as a test of driver ability. The irony is not lost on me that, while ever larger sums in the mega millions are spent 'sculpting' every last inch of those bodies on computers and in wind tunnels, all it has succeeded in doing is making the window of working performance so narrow that even the supposed geniuses who do the sculpting are so often lost as to why the cars are not working on track as they did in the wind tunnel! Children would be laughing at this, but there's a whole world of adults who still reckon that this is 'serious business'. When you need to open and shut a hole in a rear wing to be all but guaranteed of passing the car in front of you who is not allowed to do likewise, to me it is just one big sad joke - an insult to the intelligence of those who crave to still take it seriously. F1, as a sport, is dead. It is now almost entirely a show, an extravaganza hyped up to appeal to the masses and ever less so to motorsport enthusiasts. Given that it is 'owned' only by profit-driven individuals and corporations, this should be no surprise, as disappointing as it is to many people"

InnerToxicity
InnerToxicity

Vettel is a cold arrogant driver, incredibly talented but he's never going to concede a place to Webber. The redbull is a fast car and Webber has as good a chance there as with any other team, he needs to get ruthless =)

Tajhz
Tajhz

Does this not remind you of Senna vs Prost?

LouisSoon
LouisSoon

Take the punch: Punch Vettel...

zamm333
zamm333

Fuck Vettel for this shit. Taking a sitting duck who had his car turned down with multi 21 it wasnt even a fair fight. Vettel is a little shithead and Webber deserved that win and had it stolen from him plain and simple. Webber>Vettel.

alexperalta191
alexperalta191

Sure, F1 should be only about epic battles, but hey you had the order of staying second to you mate who powered down his engine  to save tyres and stuff, so it wasn't a 100% authentic move. We've seen this kind of strategy in the past with Michael Schumacher and Rubens Barrichelo, in that moment acocording to Michael he wasn't part of their team direction, but some years ago he was confirmed to be part of the play. In the end it's a race and you're trying to win...

Cossiworth
Cossiworth

Vettel broke team orders and of course looks bad to his team while also shitting on Webers parade...then apologises as he made an error/fuck.

Oh well, I'll still take those points ... and the lead in the championship , but I'm realllllly sorry guys !!

Yeah right !!

btw: Don't give Redbull to your kids it WILL spoil them ;P

Beder
Beder

Vettel is a dick, triple world champion or not that's not the right way to go about things, especially this early in the season. Of course, as Mark said, Vettel will have protection from the team for his actions and the racing continues for him. Mark on the other hand might not have a drive next year. He is getting old, but racing as good as ever, and off contract at the end of the season, i wouldn't be surprised if he hangs up his F1 racing boots at the end of the season, it'll be sad if he does and great loss for F1. Bernie Ecclestone has given him shit, same with some Austrian guy high up in Red Bull. I think there is only so much tormenting and bullying that one man should ever take at the pointy end of racing in the world and this might just push Mark over the edge.

Sam
Sam

Marks old and should move on? Please... He is a consistently at the pointy end of the field. He has no reason to walk away.

 

Oh and fuck vettel.

sean klingelhoefer
sean klingelhoefer moderator

The man-machine-robot has become self-aware!!! Look out F1! 

homerunman
homerunman

you wanna talk about immature drivers, how about alonso staying off pit road causing the front of his car to explode? sheer lunacy, and no the good kind.

Ross I
Ross I

Right or wrong I don't think it really matters.  It was amazing to see Webber  and Vettel fighting it out, I cant remember the last time I was literally on the edge of my seat shouting at the TV while watching F1! Yeah Vettel is a employee of Redbull and should have followed orders, but if he had have done the last 1/4 of the race would have been pretty dull imo. F1 Should be about the best of the best fighting wheel to wheel to the very last inch or tarmac. Seeing Webber and Vettel going 'mano a mano' reminded me why I love F1!

ElFantasmo
ElFantasmo

Given his age i don't think he will be racing next year, and if so, he won't go to ferrari.  I believe he is either going to retire or keep racing as usual. There is no "cold war" in this sport.

Also, he accepted long time ago his "number two" status.

JDMized
JDMized

Just by looking at the pool results, it shows the maturity level (or lack of) of SH readers.

Nearly 50% of you would advice Mark Webber to race for himself.

You guys forget that both drivers work for the same Team, and THE Team makes the decision. If cohesiveness is not achievable, than Mark Webber should talk to the Team manager and discuss the matter WITH Sebastien Vettel present.

At this level of motorsport, "racing on your own will bring you more damages than victories." To be successful drivers NEED their teams.

Vettel showed a level of immaturity in this GP.

junwin222
junwin222

"And if you no longer go for a gap that exists, you're no longer a racing driver, because we are competing. We are competing to win, and the main motivation to all of us is to compete for victory; it's not to come 3rd, 4th, 5th or 6th." - Senna

R3d Baron
R3d Baron

It's time for Mark to move on.  

JakWhite
JakWhite

Now from a team point of view I think what Vettel did was wrong as they were asked to maintain their positions to ensure victory, but however, this is racing, racing isn't a dictatorship, the fastest on the day wins - end of discussion. I also see this from a betting and spectator point of view as a complete farce. I don't want to know the definite winner before the end of the race. Vettels not the world champion for no reason, he WANTS it more.

PierreBelliveau
PierreBelliveau

Think back to the small margin of points Vettel won the 2010 and 2012 championships with. He knows that Ferrari will be a lot more competitive this year and that the 7 extra points he got for that win will eventually help him in the end. He's a racing driver and he knows he can probably get away with it, why wouldn't he do it.

 

He took the chance and didn't fuck up. I understand Webber is pissed but it's not the first time. Both cars came home in one piece and that's it. I could understand the team being really pissed after a repeat of Turkey 2010 but it's over now.

 

Team orders suck, period. Rosberg lost that podium spot to a slower Hamilton too because of them.

mbretschneider
mbretschneider

And then people say that wrestling is the only "staged" sport out there...

Peden
Peden

This is a different scenario, the team didn't make the call.. Seb did /Peden

RED27
RED27

Gilles Villeneuve   V   Didier Pironi  ,These things can be dangerous Vettel acted like a Brat...the season is long it's not won at the second race

JoeWhaler
JoeWhaler

Sebastian Vettel is employed by Red Bull Racing. Vettel ignored direct orders from his superiors. If any of us went to work tomorrow and ignored our boss completely, then we would get fired, or be severely disciplined. This is what needs to happen, and then it can all be finished with.

grandtouring
grandtouring

"By being a racing driver you are under risk all the time. By being a racing driver means you are racing with other people. And if you no longer go for a gap that exists, you are no longer a racing driver because we are competing, we are competing to win. And the main motivation to all of us is to compete for victory, it's not to come 3rd, 4th, 5th or 6th. I race to win as long as I feel it's possible. Sometimes you get it wrong? Sure, it's impossible to get it right all the time. But I race designed to win, as long as I feel I'm doing it right." Ayrton Senna.

 

History repeats...

DominiqueSeefeldt
DominiqueSeefeldt

Team orders should be banned anyway! I don't see what all the palaver is about, it is a race and the fastest is supposed to win!


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