Discussion: Red Bull Drama At F1 Malaysia

This weekend, Formula 1 headed to Sepang Circuit for the second round of the 2013 season, and what unfolded was a race filled with both on-track drama and some very uncomfortable moments between team-mates. The biggest of these was of course between first and second place finishers Sebastian Vettel and Mark Webber of Red Bull Racing.

With 10 laps to go, Webber was in P1 leading the second place Vettel  with team orders to conserve pace and ensure the 1-2 finish. Sebastian had other ideas. He battled Webber hard, and after some hair-raising wheel to wheel action, passed his team-mate to take P1 and the eventual victory. Mark’s reaction was immediate, throwing up the one-finger salute after Vettel made the pass.

Vettel eventually apologized to his team-mate in the post race press conference, saying he should have obeyed the team and held his position behind Webber.

Webber on the other hand has not been so quick to forgive.

So with all the controversy that followed Sunday’s race, we thought we should open a little discussion so you guys can voice your opinions on what happened. What do you think about team orders F1? Was Vettel wrong to overtake? Should it be every driver for himself? Perhaps more importantly, what should Mark Webber do next?

We’ve also thrown in a poll to get your thoughts on what you’d do if you were in Webber’s shoes.

-Mike

(Photos from Red Bull Racing)


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149 comments
weasel
weasel

F1 politics is worse than watching American datyime TV.

If I were Mark Webber, I would have sprayed more champagne in Vettels eyes on the podium, and then took a dump in his sleeping quarters where he wouldnt know it until he got cozy in the sheets.

N1SMO
N1SMO

In my dream scenario Webber should have smashed Vettel's face in....but that is only a pipedream to when men were still men and nobody wore crash helmets. I think it was too early in the season to be giving team orders,the season is still very long.Vettel was also wrong because he already knew Webber had turned won his motor when he started making comments that webber is slow over the radio. i then already knew what he was planning and just hoped they didn't crash into each other. I think he showed cowardice by choosing to overtake when he already knew webber has turned down his motor. The team also should have let webber know Vettel is still running on a stronger map so he maybe could have defended harder. but it's a team sport,and Webber is a good nr.2 since he joined the team. Respect for him to not have made even a bigger scene. 

 

VETTEL JY IS N POES

cornerbalance
cornerbalance

Silverstone 2010 - look at the last few laps, then Webber's comments last year pre-Brazil, where the championship was actually up for grabs, and then Vettel's decision makes more sense....and why the team orders made no real sense in the first place (my opinion only)

brmasson07
brmasson07

Although I don't really agree with Vettel going against team orders, I have to applaud him for his hunger and wanting that victory. It was clear he had the fastest car, and with the opportunity to pick up another win, he jumped on it. Really, we should be looking at the reason for why the team order for Webber to take victory was given. The only logical reason to me, was that Alonso was already out of the race, so Vettel was going to increase his gap over the next best championship contender anyways, and Webber was in the rare position of his as a #2 driver to win a race on the year, so RBR probably thought, "why not give him the victory?" Because let's be honest here, Webber is obviously the #2 driver in that camp, he's on his last peak years as an F1 driver and he'll probably take all that he can get right now in terms of victories and accolades. Really this just shows the problem F1 has in terms of political management and how teams run races, because unlike NASCAR, NHRA, IndyCar, endurance racing and other forms of motorsport where teams run multiple cars, F1 is really the only one that stands out where they have a driver with the main priority over the other one, and this leads to instances like Senna and Prost for McLaren and Schumacher and Barrichello for Ferrari, and it's a huge blemish for the sport in terms of competition. How do you fix this then? The only logical solution to that is to get rid of the second car, but you have a better chance of winning the Powerball than that happening...

Golightly
Golightly

As if RBR is going to dish out a punishment to a guy that gave them 3 WDCs and was the larger contributing factor in their 3 WCCs. Should Vettel have ignored the orders? No. Should the orders have been given? No. Vettel is a champion, he's not going to take 2nd when he -knows- he can have 1st. The team shouldn't have put him in that position, regardless of their reasoning. The TEAM still gets the same points. The NUMBER 1 driver gets his deserved 25. This is the best outcome for RBR. Vettel shouldn't have had to fight for that position; the order should have been given to Webber to allow the pass. 

tenpennyjimmy
tenpennyjimmy

The team hands out the pay checks to the drivers, but Bernie Ecclestone is the ultimate ringmaster of this circus. He knows - as do we all - that pinch of road rage has always been that little extra spice that makes F1 more interesting... all the more so if the drivers in question drive for the same team. It wouldn't surprise me if Mr Ecclestone encouraged it.

 

Conspiracy theory? Look at wrestling.

MarciDarsiMerkel
MarciDarsiMerkel

It is racing.The driver with the best skills should win.I'm working for Toyota in Germany, Colone.And yes, the F1 is more showbiz than real racing.But in my opinion Vettel has done it right to overtake Webber. I hate team orders like this one,but sometimes the engineers,which want to keep up the good work,are only victims of some stupid management.

calzyB
calzyB

If Vettle does not get punishment for this, then Red Bull must throw out all team orders because they would be showing no accountability for not following them. I don't care either way, but it is in the best interest of the team (the people with all the $) not to have both their cars crash into each other. On the other hand, it is the best interest of the fan to watch evenly matched cars battle at the end of the race. Also, I thought team orders were illegal anyway?? Example: the team could not order driver A to let driver B pass him. How is the scenario that happened on Sunday not an extension of that?

Jason Hardy
Jason Hardy

Team orders are team orders, no one is bigger than the team, in the case of mark webber he should of ran him off the road untill they collided, vettel should never have put his car in a position to get past mark in the first place. This weekend vettel showed a new side to his personalitly and its not one i like. I can understand that as a team you want a tenacious racer who will always fight for the win but what if that driver doesnt know how to take an order? Vettel will beat Webber in the championship this year anyway, thats a given but if he wants Marks help for the title later in the season has he just burned his bridges? lets say webber needs to keep alonso at bay for vettel to take the title again? I think webber would just move over, i know i would!

PierrotLeFou
PierrotLeFou

I hope this does not end in a "Senna-Prost" scenario. It's gonna be another sad chapter in F1 history if that happens.

Scotty
Scotty

Vettel is a piece of shit, not a lot more needs to be said.

 

Gio_001
Gio_001

The major  fact is that Vettel ignored the TEAM BOSS order ! Unless he is in command of the team and we don't know it... All the rests are minor.  If you can't trust your driver's (as a team) then you can't talk about a team, it's a playground. If you can't control your drivers then something is going wrong with your team. If there was no order everything would be fine: may the best and faster win. But since there was an order from the team for BOTH drivers they had to respect it. Vettel didn't. I don't care if he is faster or not, the fact is if the team can trust him or not. What would happen if we were close to the end of season, Webber was going for the champion and Vettel was ignoring orders from the team? Either you work for a team or else make your own and race in any way you want.

DavidRussell1
DavidRussell1

Webber fought back and won after he got after the pits on colder harder tyres, then they were told to cool it ans conserve their cars so Webber turned down his engine and kers and this is when Vettel past him, some have said that its ok because Schumacher and Senna would have done the same and ignored the orders no to pass, but the truth is they would have never have been given the orders not to pass in the first place so it would have been a fair fight, that is what makes this different.  Vettel has forgotten all the times that Webber helped him to his championship wins despite the fast that Vettel has hit Webber off twice during his career already (Turkey and Japan(under safety car)) Webber should just act in his own interest from now on and not co-operate with Vettel again 

willyra
willyra

wow this is good i like to know:

-what if you are in the position if hamilton? what will you do? will you to tell the team hey let he pass me i am slow because i can't save the fuel.

-and what if you in the position of webber? what will you do? when team say that both of you to hold position then of course you will drive easy to save the tire, suddenly vettel coming up to your side...what you gonna do?

 

it will be different if red bull say both of driver free to take 1 or 2 position as long as car didn't DNF, webber will not let vettel catch him up,

why vettel can catch him up because webber know vettel will not pass him, but vettel did pass him

 

and for this past 3 years i like vettel he young and talented, but i just lost my respect for him, and of course vettel didn't care we lost our respect or not, not even you he even didn't care what team say to him on the race

Jockycalvert
Jockycalvert

Webber was obeying  team orders. He shouldn't be, in ANY way, scrutinised for this. But Vettel is obviously very insecure and cant handle being in second!! Poor move by him, makes him look very selfish.

Slowik
Slowik

Webber fought and lost to Vettel becouse he was slower. He should fought back immediately if he could! That is RACING for f**k sake! Team of course should hold them back A LITTLE to not wreck the cars, and get precious 1-2 victory, but giving orders is not fair in my opinion, at least not on the 2nd race! But i think way more harmed on that GP was Nico Rosberg who obeyed to team order to not pass Hamilton who on last 2 laps was WAAAAAY slower becouse of fuel saving. HOW UNFAIR IS THAT?!  

greenroadster
greenroadster

What do you think about team orders F1?

I don't like them if they are interfering with whos winning.

Was Vettel wrong to overtake?

Very wrong because he put Webber in a very unconfortable position - teams order was not to fight but was given a fight that he can not win.

 

If I was Webber, I wouldnt let Vettel pass again in my life, regardless of tems interest. Or Vettel integrity of the car.

MaxMotter
MaxMotter

It's a championship. I feel like as long as the two drivers took a 1-2 finish, who cares who came first? I think this is indicative of F1's overbearing political environment. At the end of the day, it's a race. #nocompromise

MasonK
MasonK

Overall as a driver, you sign your contract to race for the team. Not yourself! But however this is disregarded in the eyes of the drivers themselves. That is, because this is racing and that is what a driver does! So all in all as a teammate Webber did the right thing by obeying orders and Vettel as a teammate disregarded orders. However, Webber being a driver should of just raced as what a driver and a winner does such as his teammate Vettel!

this.guy.said
this.guy.said

Realistically looking down the grid who could repalce webber and do as well or better as a team mate to vettel, I mean they would come in knowing red bull will expect results but they will always be #2 to vettel until vettel gets too old and thers new talent to secure. I place the blame on mark webbers engineer really he should have warned him about vettels pace since he can see data from both cars and im pretty sure he could see that vettel was disobeying orders. If I were webber I would have said F it and gone for broke and hope so if I didnt finish or got disqualfied for fuel it would have been on the horner and the engineers for not controlling vettel.

bigjoe
bigjoe

I like somebodysb21....the man has been putting some of the lesser knowledgeable ppl straight lol. On another note, even Hamilton didn't like how the race ended due to his team orders. Funny thing is he was consistently faster than Rosberg for the entire race...give or take 3/4 laps where Rosberg was marginally faster and YET, had to basically coast for 12-15 laps near the end. I understood Rosberg's frustration but if Hamilton didn't have to conserve fuel, there's no way in hell he was going to keep up with Hamilton (remember Hamilton was actually in 2nd place and in front of Vettel when the shit hit the fan)...it was a sad weekend for F1

bigjoe
bigjoe

I think 777 hit the nail on the head with that post. It really can't get anymore honest than that.

bigjoe
bigjoe

Fkitbtn: How long have you been watching F1? F1 is as much a business as it is a sport. Team tactics and orders have been employed in F1 since the 70's; and men have been breaking those rules since then as well. Therefore your outburst really isn't valid or make sense. MANY times Webber has been told to hold position over the years to allow Vettel to win or not give chase so that there would be no unnecessary risks taken. Have you all forgotten when both Vettel and Webber crashed due to a similar incident only 2 years ago? YES, you're a racing driver who wants to win, but in the end if you're part of a TEAM and the TEAM called a shot so as to achieve MAXIMUM points for the TEAM and NOT have their two drivers race AND have a repeat of the past; then you should obey.Vettel was NOT getting close enough to pass Webber within that race. When he finally got close to him and said over the team radio "Mark is too slow, tell him move over", Mark put a 3 seconds distance between them. He was told to conserve his tyres, hence why Vettel had caught him at that point. Otherwise, Webber was clearly keeping his race pace and distance throughout the race UNTIL the team told him to slow down since MERCEDES had slowed their drivers.Red Bull Racing usually lets their drivers race each other throughout the races but the fact that ANYONE who avidly follows F1 will know nothing will come out of this, shows that there has always and will always be a hidden preference to Vettel. What did mark say on the victory stand? "Vettel took matters into his own hands and he will be PROTECTED as USUAL"Barrichello was World Championship material by the way; for TWO years too. There were MANY times at Ferrari that he was cutting EVERYONE including AlONSO'S ass but team orders either came into play OR his car would have problems and he'd retire. There was one year he was even in the chase for the title. So saying that's he's another Barrichello doesn't make sense. Sometimes i honestly think a lot of ppl who have opinions on here are YouTube posters: Have little actual knowledge on something but just love to THINK they actually know something. If you're REALLY into F1 and follow the dirty little secrets as well, you'd know that Webber has ALWAYS had a battle from the time Vettel joined the team from Toro Rosso. From the team taking parts off of his car to put on Vettel's to somehow ONLY Webber's alternator in the 2012 season kept giving trouble and not Vettel....oh the lovely world of F1

somebodysb21
somebodysb21

Webber should accept that he is just another Barrichello. Drivers that aren't World Championship material SHOULD NOT interfere with World Championship drivers.

Silveti
Silveti

honestly i think the best what Mark Webber must do is take it easy with vettel, vettel is young and though he has won 3 times the championship, he still must learn so this will be a good teaching to him, these atitudes will disappear at the time what vettel look how he is growin up he, still with hunger to go, go fast and go first and maybe with this feelin sometimes he make some mistakes but if i be webber  ll take with tranquility the championship are starting, so will be more races to win, also they are teammates i think they should be together.

Fkitbtn
Fkitbtn

It's fucking RACING you are all pussies and this is woman drama that should not be in F1. Did he break any rules? No. So quit bitching and go back to playing golf, or sit back and enjoy real racing, not a bunch of guys in fast cars acting respectable to let someone that feels entitled to win. It's racing to me, there's no crying, if you see an opening you take it, THE END.

Fkitbtn
Fkitbtn

 @N1SMO" but that is only a pipedream to when men were still men"

 

 

Hahahahahahahahahaha I only made it that far. Men being men means when someone passes you, you punch them in the face because you are slow and can't win? You're a woman! I could care less who it is, but I'm happy Vettel saw the opening and took it, not  letting some entitled, bitter douche win, that wouldn't have moved up anyways. Welcome to racing baby girl, wins aren't given to you.

Matteo851
Matteo851

 @brmasson07 Vettel was faster also because the team Redbull has ordered the drivers to slow down and maintain positions in order to preserve the cars, but only Webber actually follow this order, so Vettel was able to catch up

Matteo851
Matteo851

 @MarciDarsiMerkel No. Vettel as a employee of RBR  must obey team orders, no risk to destroy everything in order to overtake a team-mate running on low power map (as the team request to him and to vettel too).

hanablemoore
hanablemoore

 @PierrotLeFou That was Vettel time to show a little character and he definitely showed what character he had.

noob saibot
noob saibot

and Scotty is the biggest piece of shit on earth.

 

Come on, its racing, second place is the first looser. There was a time when all this bullshit didn't matter, and only racing and finishing on first place was important. I miss those times, because real shitheads without any skill (like Alonso) would have been killed in those days...

 

Matteo851
Matteo851

 @Gio_001 you are right, plus the team order to mantain position and switch to the more conservative engine map to preserve engine, fuel and tires, "multi21" Webber did but Vettel didn't, this plus the better tires make Vettel able to catch and overtake Webber

cornerbalance
cornerbalance

 @DavidRussell1 apparantly you forgot those times too - because I cannot point to a single even where Webber helped Vettel.  They have not gotten along since the start, and that is no secret in or out of the paddocks.  Webber has made his points very clear in the past (well documented going back several years in interviews)

flywthtwngs
flywthtwngs

 @greenroadster Its not like a fight that mark couldnt win, but one he wasnt willing to fight. as much we like to watch a good race, f1 is a team sport, which includes BOTH drivers. And when two team drivers do battle it out for position, it can be wheel to wheel, but not THAT close, because what Seb did was way too close and it was an unnecessary risk. And to anyone whose saying that mark cannot match seb's pace,  mark is just as fast, but he is also wiser, hence he never takes any unnecessary risks and thinks about the big picture instead of just one race. 

Matteo851
Matteo851

 @somebodysb21 actually Webber could be a world champion in the 2010 if the team didn't use him as a bait for Ferrari team at Abu dhabi to favour Vetter even though webber was ahead in the world championship standings

Matteo851
Matteo851

 @Fkitbtn this is stupid, red bull racing spent  more than 100 milion of euros for racing, so Vettel as a employee of RBR  must obey team orders, no risk to destroy everything in order to overtake a team-mate running on low power map (due to team request)

Phalkhan
Phalkhan

 @Matteo851  @brmasson07

 Agreed. Up til the last pit stops, Webber had a 2-3 sec gap on Vettel. When Vettel took his last pit stop, he knew Webber would pit on the next lap. So Vettel "pushed" on his out lap to try and beat Webber out of the pit. When he ended up right behind Webber, Vettel already had his tires at temp and I think his "hunger" kicked in and he went into fight mode. With cold tires, there was no way Webber could have stayed in front of Vettel.

Scotty
Scotty

The fact is Princess, that team orders do exist and people with rather large ego's need to learn to obey these. 

 

And as for Alonso having no skill, I'd like to see you out there doing better ;)

Matteo851
Matteo851

No. Vettel as a employee of RBR  must obey team orders, no risk to destroy everything in order to overtake a team-mate running on low power map (as the team request to him and to vettel too).

 

 

and to be clair it appened in the past to, look at Imola Grand prix of 1982, with Gilles Villenueve and Didier Pironi.

(the next gp was at Zolder if you know what appened)

SaudQureshi
SaudQureshi

 @Matteo851  @Gio_001 Vettel needs to be disciplined for this by Red Bull themselves. They need to remind him who's boss. If they can't do that, they have a serious problem regardless of whether or not they have one of the best cars on the grid.

DavidRussell1
DavidRussell1

 @DavidRussell1

 he's been asked not to pass at the end of a couple of races when vettels tyres were shot and wbber had done one more stop also when vettel was low on fuel and had to coast his had to give up car parts to vettel when vettel has crashed in practice and the only current part was on webbers car so webber had to use an older part. he's been asked to try and hold other drivers back wearing his tyers out when he should have been conserving according to his strategy if you google search for the radio transmissions you find a lot more than make it onto tv.

Matteo851
Matteo851

 @DavidRussell1 

 

in the final race of 2010 webber was "use like a bait" and anticipated stop favoring vettel.

(then if you look carefully Webber's car is the one that breaks more often),

Beside this I'm not sure a fan of Webber but I often find Vettel's behaviour incorrect

Fkitbtn
Fkitbtn

 @Matteo851  @Fkitbtn Yeah, you're right I sure feel dumb. I mean, why should you ever pass your team mate in a RACE, that's just stupid.

 

 

noob saibot
noob saibot

....you both might be right about the team orders and the need top respect them, but what i wanted to say was that this is a tactical note far from these real f1 battles in the past - you would find pro and contra all over the history of f1 racing but i'm one of those to like the "pure" racing, without these teamorder bullshit. I say, racing is about who is the fastest on track, who is the most skilled and who has the best nerves. And there were a lot of these drivers in the past, Fangio, Clark, Prost, Senna, Schumacher, just to name a few.

 

And, well, if it belongs to the before mentioned spaniard, it's not about me - but i think he's not far from  those paydrivers - when it comes to skill, he couldn't compare to Vettel, Räikkonen, Hamilton, Rosberg, Webber, Button, even Hülkenberg  or Sutil deserve this cockpit more...

 

bigjoe
bigjoe

 @Matteo851  @DavidRussell1 I'm glad you stated that because cornerblance clearly never realised the RBR on many occasions asked Webber to not fight for position when Vettel was in front or to block others behind him. Also like you said, his car broke down wwaaayyy more last year than Vettels. I never understood why. People say Webber isn't a good driver but honestly, he does terrible starts most of the tie but  over the last couple years how many 1 -2 finishes have RBR had?! MANY. So he's a challenge for Button, Alonso and Hamilton so don't know where people got that idea of him not being good from.

Matteo851
Matteo851

 @Fkitbtn because someone pays you and pays the car told you to do so.

Matteo851
Matteo851

 @Fkitbtn i say more than 100 milion just to point a number, probably RBR budget is something like 300 milion of euro


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