It’s been a couple of years since I last visited Snetterton. Coincidentally, it was for the same event – the Time Attack Series finale which still ranks easily in my top five events that I’ve ever covered for the big SH. The memory of watching Gareth Lloyd taking the championship on the last lap of the last event of the season was a personal highlight in my short Speedhunters career. It was the epitome of #maximumattack. We haven’t had the opportunity to bring you as much Time Attack Series coverage this season as we would have liked, but there’s still time to share some of the machines that take part in this series …
First up is the Team Milltek GT-R driven by Richard Marshall, a road-legal Club Challenge competitor. Although this is badged as the 850-TSR, a little bit of research reveals that it runs around 800+BHP but with the option of running 950BHP at the push of a button
R888 rubber, TSW wheels and big Dixcel brakes for what is a big car.
As this car competes in Club Challenge, it doesn’t require a full roll cage and most of the original interior remains – although a half cage hides in the back. The seat and sliding mounts, from Tillet Racing, are pure automotive erotica.
The rear wing is electronically adjustable but asides from the lairy paint scheme and graphics, the car remains mostly standard on the exterior.
Another car that caught my attention wasn’t out on track, but resided in the paddock on the Mitsubishi Lancer Register stand.
Although details were scarce, the AP Tuning Evo VII was attracting a lot of attention. Advan Wheels, Alcon Brakes, Michelin slicks and a comprehensive aero package are all indicative of a complete build.
Aggression.
The large cutout – perhaps for a diffuser? – in the rear bumper allowed a better look at the modified rear end.
Inside, I could make out a MoTeC dash, OMP snap-off wheel and what looks like an Ikeya sequential shifter and hydraulic handbrake.
One of the more visceral cars competing was this Lotus Exige piloted by Jamie Willson.
Although the crew told me that they had the lowest straight line speed – a huge disadvantage at Snetterton – this Exige certainly didn’t appear slow by any stretch of the imagination.
A typically sparse race interior with a paddle-shift operated sequential gearbox. It always makes me laugh at how small these are inside.
Braid Racing wheels wrapped in Kumho rubber with AP Racing brakes lurking behind the black spokes.
Power was being delivered from the supercharged Honda K20 engine – the sound of this car vanishing into the distance with flat upshifts was glorious.
One of my favourite cars of recent years, which just never seems to get enough love, is the Impreza GH chassis. I constantly find myself on the Pistonheads classifieds seeing if they have dropped into my price range yet. (They haven’t.)
Piloted by Ben Shimmin in the Club Challenge class, the EJ25 powered car suffered some issues on the Saturday which required an all-nighter to get it up and running for Sunday’s event. It is a motor capable of over 600BHP when running right (which does seem to be most of the time).
The Pro-R prepared car features Alcon brakes and Bilstein coilovers.
Interior is a stripped, caged affair retaining the original clocks.
The world needs more Impreza hatches. Just saying.
Speaking of Imprezas …
… Pro-R have been involved in the creation of a super-limited edition Impreza TA340C road car, a car officially affiliated with the Time Attack Series.
Based on the 2011 Impreza STi saloon, the car has been subtly modified to extract the most from the already impressive chassis.
Prodrive wheels, 365mm semi-floating Alcon front brakes, a remap and custom Scorpion exhaust are some of the changes. As the name suggests, the car now boasts 340BHP.
Wrapped in a matte finish, only 15 will be produced – each of which will be numbered with a plaque proudly displaying its rare status.
I’ll finish this post up with a car that has just continued to evolve. I first seen this car at Snetterton two years ago, where it was a road registered and highly modified street car.
Over the last two years, the car has slowly but surely evolved into a different sort of beast altogether, and still piloted by the same Gary Searl.
Although it’s not the prettiest of engine bays, it’s what’s on the inside that counts.
Similar to the AP Tuning Evo above, Searl’s boasts a number of substantial improvements along with a healthy dose of carbon fibre.
Another car boasting an Ikeya sequential shifter, more so for avoiding the issue of missed gears rather than faster shifts I’d imagine.
The selection of cars above is only a small taster of what the club and club pro classes are building for what is always a toughly fought series. Roll on 2013 …
–
Paddy McGrath
paddy@dev.speedhunters.com
Photo by Paddy McGrath
Photo by Paddy McGrath
Photo by Paddy McGrath
Photo by Paddy McGrath
Photo by Paddy McGrath
OFFICIAL SPEEDHUNTERS SUPPLIERS
I was at this, totally epic. Pretty sure I saw paddy shooting at Murrays too
I agree with you Paddy on the Impreza's. There are just not as many aroundnowadays.
Can we get a feature on the Elise?
Does anyone know where I could source one of the rear subframes and adjustable arms that can be seen on the APT EVO and the Yellow EVO as well?
Cheers
I've read about a Milltek GT-R in the German "Sport Auto". Looks exactly like the Seven Valleys ... the on in the mag made about 930hp. And the engine bay's the same. .. for a testdrive it wasn't even able to complete 3 laps on the ~1:10 Hockenheim Ring. Some piping started minding it's own business. Surely an impressive machine but there's obviously a reason they use "only" 700-750hp. These cars are just a bit over the top for me ...
The gtr is NOT severn valleys car. The engine mods were done by them but it is a team miltek car. Its running over 900bhp on biofuel. I wish people would get the facts right if they are going to write a feature.
wonderful cars!!!!
the large cut out at the rear end it's like more for avoiding a sort of "sailing effect" of the rear bumper...
that exige version makes me too excited XD
@ian trigg According to Richard's build thread on GTR-OC, it's been running at about 800BHP all season. With the bright green paintwork and SVM graphics, I'm sure you'll concede that it's an easy mistake to make between it being an SVM / Milltek car.
@Laurence Wilson
If SH want to do it, it would be great to get it organised......(HINT HINT!)
(Oh, an it's an Exige just to split hairs!)
never tire of watching time attack cars! they look sooo aggresive its unreal!
@Colin Filing
Momentum Motorsport I believe
Bet that number plate isn't cheap. 123 WRX! I agree as well don't see many new scoobys around did the evo kill it??
What fender flares are on the orange Impreza? Where can I purchase them from? I want!!!!!
@Berlioz I was at Snetterton this weekend, I had a good look at the impress and I'm fairly certain that it's the cosworth body mate
Any one know what the seat in the GTR is??????It looks SICK!!!!
Speedhunters, please, please promise us more Time Attack coverage, especially in the US, next year?
Pretty please?
Speedhunters, please, please promise us more Time Attack coverage, especially in the US, next year?
Pretty please?
love the choice of wording "evolve" when it's an evo
love the choice of wording "evolve" when it's an evo
That Impreza's turbo sounds amazing. Still gives me shudders!
That Impreza's turbo sounds amazing. Still gives me shudders!
Dear Speedhunters.com - although you have taken some wonderful pics of the Green GTR I would ask you next time to actually introduce yourself and tell me what you are going to do before publishing an article which is completely wrong.
The car is privately owned by me, and is sponsored by Milltek Sport (and you were taking pictures on the display stand I thought you might have twigged) with an engine that was built and installed by Severn Valley Motorsport which runs 825bhp in practice and smaller tracks but which can be turned up to 950bhp by using the button on the steering wheel.
Brakes are by Dixcel (big sticker on the side) full exhaust system is by Milltek Sport but apart from that spot on..
Here is the facebook page...http://www.facebook.com/TeamMilltekGtr?ref=hl
Rich.
Tim - the seat in the GTR is a Tillett carbon fiber seat with a Bride runners.. Tillet Seats can be contacted on http://www.tillett.co.uk
Rich.
@maxproof The problem is getting the power down onto the tarmac without spinning the wheels and killing the tires in a few laps, the car can run 850bhp all day long and the engine has been ultra reliable, on fast straights the power can be tuned up on a flick of a steering wheel button to 950bhp on the straights.
The week link in the GTR is the gearbox and overheating, which we have been able to overcome after a season of hard testing, but to be quite frank 850bhp in a tin top car is more than enough, what is needed now is weight loss. BHP per ton is the right answer, not more power!!!
@PaddyMcGrathSH @ian trigg We have had this problem all year.. Hence the re-shaped graphics... lol It's my car, which is sponsored buy Milltek, with a full (3 way) exhaust system so it can run in any track situation in any Country with a purpose built SVM engine.. Then you have suspension by KW, brakes by Dixcel, seats by Tillet racing, aero's by Aeromotions, carbon fiber by Knight Racer and GTC, etc etc.... This is not a one stable GTR..
@maxproof The GTR in Germany was there to compete in the final, and you don't go flat out in practice or quali - you leave the best for the final, unfortunately 4th gear went and we didn't have a spare box as we were so far away and this stopped us doing anymore than 5 laps.. But we still won... lol
And it does have a roll cage, it's the big metal loop that's just behind the drivers seat, just not a full cage..
@RichardTeamGTR And shaving wheight is supposed to kill wheelspin? Don't think so. Wasn't there a bespoke reason for Nissan to make the GTR this heavy? The wheight essentialy increases grip (sure, this further depends on the track) ... especially in with that power. Apart from that it's really an impressive machine and wonderful to hear that you've made it that reliable!! That's great!
@RichardTeamGTR And shaving wheight is supposed to kill wheelspin? Don't think so. Wasn't there a bespoke reason for Nissan to make the GTR this heavy? The wheight essentialy increases grip (sure, this further depends on the track) ... especially in with that power. Apart from that it's really an impressive machine and wonderful to hear that you've made it that reliable!! That's great!
@RichardTeamGTR And shaving wheight is supposed to kill wheelspin? Don't think so. Wasn't there a bespoke reason for Nissan to make the GTR this heavy? The wheight essentialy increases grip (sure, this further depends on the track) ... especially in with that power. Apart from that it's really an impressive machine and wonderful to hear that you've made it that reliable!! That's great!
@PaddyMcGrathSH So you like GRB hatches eh? I am currently in the works of an auto-x/track build on my 2008 AW STi which I think you'll like. It will be a Darton sleeved / forged bottom end EJ257 with s2 cams/springs/retainers for the heads, GTX3071R turbo, custom v-mount setup, and plenty of other goodies. The rest of the car is sorted out and since my engine decided to blow we're rebuilding it into a auto-x destroying setup for 2013. If you like GRB's this is one you won't want to miss. I will have to shoot you an e-mail upon completion
Looking at ~2 months to go and shooting for a nice usable range of 3300-8500rpm. Trying to keep this thing spooling as low as possible!Love the pics as always and if there's any way you can get more info on the flares that orange GRB has on it I would love to know. I'm currently running 18x9.5 +45 but with some mild flares we could definitely go larger to maybe 18x10.5 with 295 rather than 275. So far I haven't been too fond of any widening options. Thanks in advance sir!
@PaddyMcGrathSH So you like GRB hatches eh? I am currently in the works of an auto-x/track build on my 2008 AW STi which I think you'll like. It will be a Darton sleeved / forged bottom end EJ257 with s2 cams/springs/retainers for the heads, GTX3071R turbo, custom v-mount setup, and plenty of other goodies. The rest of the car is sorted out and since my engine decided to blow we're rebuilding it into a auto-x destroying setup for 2013. If you like GRB's this is one you won't want to miss. I will have to shoot you an e-mail upon completion
Looking at ~2 months to go and shooting for a nice usable range of 3300-8500rpm. Trying to keep this thing spooling as low as possible!Love the pics as always and if there's any way you can get more info on the flares that orange GRB has on it I would love to know. I'm currently running 18x9.5 +45 but with some mild flares we could definitely go larger to maybe 18x10.5 with 295 rather than 275. So far I haven't been too fond of any widening options. Thanks in advance sir!
@PaddyMcGrathSH So you like GRB hatches eh? I am currently in the works of an auto-x/track build on my 2008 AW STi which I think you'll like. It will be a Darton sleeved / forged bottom end EJ257 with s2 cams/springs/retainers for the heads, GTX3071R turbo, custom v-mount setup, and plenty of other goodies. The rest of the car is sorted out and since my engine decided to blow we're rebuilding it into a auto-x destroying setup for 2013. If you like GRB's this is one you won't want to miss. I will have to shoot you an e-mail upon completion
Looking at ~2 months to go and shooting for a nice usable range of 3300-8500rpm. Trying to keep this thing spooling as low as possible!Love the pics as always and if there's any way you can get more info on the flares that orange GRB has on it I would love to know. I'm currently running 18x9.5 +45 but with some mild flares we could definitely go larger to maybe 18x10.5 with 295 rather than 275. So far I haven't been too fond of any widening options. Thanks in advance sir!
@RichardTeamGTR Apologies Richard, I've been on the road since 6AM and have only had the opportunity to check my messages now. I'll update the story immediately with the correct details. I popped by the Milltek stand a couple of times but each time, your crew were pre-occupied preparing and checking over the car. I've learned from past experience not to bother a man with access to tools.
If you don't mind me asking, I see on GTR-OC that you plan on building a new car for next year? If you could, would it be possible for you to keep me updated on that? I'm sure it's going to be a car that our readers will love.
All the best,
Paddy
@RichardTeamGTR Apologies Richard, I've been on the road since 6AM and have only had the opportunity to check my messages now. I'll update the story immediately with the correct details. I popped by the Milltek stand a couple of times but each time, your crew were pre-occupied preparing and checking over the car. I've learned from past experience not to bother a man with access to tools.
If you don't mind me asking, I see on GTR-OC that you plan on building a new car for next year? If you could, would it be possible for you to keep me updated on that? I'm sure it's going to be a car that our readers will love.
All the best,
Paddy
@RichardTeamGTR Apologies Richard, I've been on the road since 6AM and have only had the opportunity to check my messages now. I'll update the story immediately with the correct details. I popped by the Milltek stand a couple of times but each time, your crew were pre-occupied preparing and checking over the car. I've learned from past experience not to bother a man with access to tools.
If you don't mind me asking, I see on GTR-OC that you plan on building a new car for next year? If you could, would it be possible for you to keep me updated on that? I'm sure it's going to be a car that our readers will love.
All the best,
Paddy
@maxproof No less weight is not supposed to kill or reduce wheels spin - that was not the statement. Less weight means that not so much power is needed and helps with the corner speeds.. Try pushing a heavy object when on a slippery surface.. The weight factor is very important, it takes longer or more power to get the car up to speed, and takes longer and bigger brakes to slow it down.. That is why most race cars are light with average (compared to Time Attack) bhp, I believe that the GT1 car actually has less power than a standard GTR.
And No the GTR wasn't made heavy for traction purposes, the GTR uses as many weight saving products that it can to keep weight as low as possible without being and being too expensive, however, the there are newer lighter versions available which do use more CF and Titanium.. The GTR is after all a Grand Tourer and has a level of comfort and size that accounts for all that weight.
@maxproof No less weight is not supposed to kill or reduce wheels spin - that was not the statement. Less weight means that not so much power is needed and helps with the corner speeds.. Try pushing a heavy object when on a slippery surface.. The weight factor is very important, it takes longer or more power to get the car up to speed, and takes longer and bigger brakes to slow it down.. That is why most race cars are light with average (compared to Time Attack) bhp, I believe that the GT1 car actually has less power than a standard GTR.
And No the GTR wasn't made heavy for traction purposes, the GTR uses as many weight saving products that it can to keep weight as low as possible without being and being too expensive, however, the there are newer lighter versions available which do use more CF and Titanium.. The GTR is after all a Grand Tourer and has a level of comfort and size that accounts for all that weight.
@maxproof No less weight is not supposed to kill or reduce wheels spin - that was not the statement. Less weight means that not so much power is needed and helps with the corner speeds.. Try pushing a heavy object when on a slippery surface.. The weight factor is very important, it takes longer or more power to get the car up to speed, and takes longer and bigger brakes to slow it down.. That is why most race cars are light with average (compared to Time Attack) bhp, I believe that the GT1 car actually has less power than a standard GTR.
And No the GTR wasn't made heavy for traction purposes, the GTR uses as many weight saving products that it can to keep weight as low as possible without being and being too expensive, however, the there are newer lighter versions available which do use more CF and Titanium.. The GTR is after all a Grand Tourer and has a level of comfort and size that accounts for all that weight.
@maxproof No less weight is not supposed to kill or reduce wheels spin - that was not the statement. Less weight means that not so much power is needed and helps with the corner speeds.. Try pushing a heavy object when on a slippery surface.. The weight factor is very important, it takes longer or more power to get the car up to speed, and takes longer and bigger brakes to slow it down.. That is why most race cars are light with average (compared to Time Attack) bhp, I believe that the GT1 car actually has less power than a standard GTR.
And No the GTR wasn't made heavy for traction purposes, the GTR uses as many weight saving products that it can to keep weight as low as possible without being and being too expensive, however, the there are newer lighter versions available which do use more CF and Titanium.. The GTR is after all a Grand Tourer and has a level of comfort and size that accounts for all that weight.
@maxproof No less weight is not supposed to kill or reduce wheels spin - that was not the statement. Less weight means that not so much power is needed and helps with the corner speeds.. Try pushing a heavy object when on a slippery surface.. The weight factor is very important, it takes longer or more power to get the car up to speed, and takes longer and bigger brakes to slow it down.. That is why most race cars are light with average (compared to Time Attack) bhp, I believe that the GT1 car actually has less power than a standard GTR.
And No the GTR wasn't made heavy for traction purposes, the GTR uses as many weight saving products that it can to keep weight as low as possible without being and being too expensive, however, the there are newer lighter versions available which do use more CF and Titanium.. The GTR is after all a Grand Tourer and has a level of comfort and size that accounts for all that weight.
@RichardTeamGTR That's the common anticipation. Reduce wheight, get faster lap times. I've been searching where i've got the idea about the GTR being just heavy on purpose and ... go see yourself. As i said: Reducing wheight is not always the key.
http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php?t=128804&highlight=nissan+GTr+interview
@RichardTeamGTR That's the common anticipation. Reduce wheight, get faster lap times. I've been searching where i've got the idea about the GTR being just heavy on purpose and ... go see yourself. As i said: Reducing wheight is not always the key.
http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php?t=128804&highlight=nissan+GTr+interview
@RichardTeamGTR That's the common anticipation. Reduce wheight, get faster lap times. I've been searching where i've got the idea about the GTR being just heavy on purpose and ... go see yourself. As i said: Reducing wheight is not always the key.
http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php?t=128804&highlight=nissan+GTr+interview
@RichardTeamGTR And to make another point: Whats the use of downforce if not to create wheight on the wheels? Sure it's a different type of wheight cause you don't suffer inertia but i think Mizono-san has a point.
@maxproof I'm sure we can go back and forth all day on this one, but believe me I have been driving a GTR now since they first turned up in the UK, You take more weight out and lower the center of gravity and it will do better lap times - it's pure simple physics.. Go for a run in your car, on your favorite piece of road... set a time... now put 3 full grow mates in the car and do the same.. !!! It will handle worse, be more difficult to turn in, and you will cook the brakes earlier.. same difference I'm afraid..
@maxproof And just for the record, when the 2009 GTR came out we (the owners) found a few faults and ways to make the GTR better, 2011 car had these mods put on as standard..
Take it from me - reduce the weight, sort the suspension and tires accordingly the GTR will go faster.. I proved that in the MSV How Fast track sessions and am currently the fastest GTR and saloon..
see here http://www.howfast.co.uk/leaderboard.aspx
@maxproof Downforce is not pure weight, it's speed vs weight.. the faster you go the more downforce you will have on a fixed aero set up (my GTR has a intelligent moving rear wing) but the drag slows the car (hence why F1 has the DRS drag reduction system for the straights), however it will allow you to corner more because the force, weight if you want to call it is pushed straight down. The weight in the vehicle on cornering moves to the outside of that vehicle, like a pendulum - the outside wheels get push down as the inside gets lifted up, with downforce the inside wheel is pushed down allowing the car to corner better.
However, it is a very big misconception that all aeros work whatever the speed, usually you have to be going over 100 - 120 mph to get sufficient downforce on a production car and the underside should be flat and a splitter on the front to direct more air over the top and less underneath to stop lift.
@RichardTeamGTR
First of all: Thanks for you're replies! In no way do i intend to offend you and you will surely know a lot more about how to setup a racer. And i totally unterstand and KNOW what you're trying to say 
But i'd just like to think about your example. I drive a Miata. 980kg 131hp equalling 133hp/ton. I assume your GTR wheighs about 1600? Making it 531/ton. I'd have to upgrade my Miata to about 540hp to have the same power to wheight ratio. Do you think i'd be faster around the Ring with no buddy, one buddy on the passenger seat or with 3 of them strapped on my trunk? I guess it would be the latter. Not to mention that in no way i'd like to drive a 540hp Miata because it's just ridiculous.
I'm just saying that for some kind of horsepower you need some serious wheight (because downforce will not be available for the start or slow corners) and/or high traction tires. You say it's simple physics but i tell you that physics aren't simple.
And there are other good examples where wheight (at the right spot) can do you good. Take the 911. It breaks unbelievably good, just because the engine's in the back. Sure .. the old ones are quite bumpy on the front end (driving a 930 Turbo was about the most scarying thing i've ever done). Traction out of corners is equally impressive especially with 4x4 Turbos.
@maxproof @RichardTeamGTR
Max proof I think your a bit miss guided. Between weight and downforce.
Yes a heavier car gives you more downforce but this is not advantages.
If you think of it like this, you have car "A" weighing 1000kg and car "B" weighing 2000kg to get car "B" up to say 100mph in the same time as car "A" your going to need more power, more power means more traction is required, lower the weight you lower the amount of traction required, this is on acceleration and deceleration, when it comes to going around corners the more weight the more force being thrown outwards as the mass doesn't want to change direction, so more force going through the tires and thus more grip, reduce the weight less force to fight agains less grip required. Putting spoilers on the car puts more dynamic downforce on the car which gives more traction but without increasing the static loading on the car mean the car can be light and have maximum traction on the track.
@AH automotive i think there is some severe misunderstanding in general here. Thanks for all the insights but...i know that.
But: wheight has nothing to do with downforce as you said.
All i wanted to say is that the gtrs wheight serves the cars perfomance. And thats an undeniable fact due to several tests.
You can definately be harder on the gas with a heavier Car out of corners than with a lighter one. And, as its the case with 800+ hp thats an advantage.
Therefore ..and thats what i wanted to say all the Time..wheightshaving must always be seen in context of the overall cars traction, bhp, the track itself and so on. Ließ wheight can be a disadvantage when massive wheelspin is the result.
How would you explain a lap time of 7:38 on the ring in comparison to a 911 GT2s 7:34 with way 'better' power-to-wheight-ratio?
@AH automotive i think there is some severe misunderstanding in general here. Thanks for all the insights but...i know that.
But: wheight has nothing to do with downforce as you said.
All i wanted to say is that the gtrs wheight serves the cars perfomance. And thats an undeniable fact due to several tests.
You can definately be harder on the gas with a heavier Car out of corners than with a lighter one. And, as its the case with 800+ hp thats an advantage.
Therefore ..and thats what i wanted to say all the Time..wheightshaving must always be seen in context of the overall cars traction, bhp, the track itself and so on. Ließ wheight can be a disadvantage when massive wheelspin is the result.
How would you explain a lap time of 7:38 on the ring in comparison to a 911 GT2s 7:34 with way 'better' power-to-wheight-ratio?
@maxproof No offence taken at all. I fully understand what your saying. The 'Ring' favours big power cars as it doesn't have any slow tight corners with short straights, and yes the GTR in standard form would more than likely win.
What I'm talking about is small tracks, with tight hairpins and short straights, Bedford West Circuit, Cadwell Park etc, where the full power of the GTR cannot be used all the time. This is where the smaller lighter car will claw back the advantage, being able to break later into the corner and carry more speed through the corners.
I'm sure there is a perfect power / weight figure for a car for track purpose but my GTR is not it - It is 1749kgs and I usually use about 800bhp - I would like to see 1250kgs and 750bhp and I would be much quicker around the smaller circuits..
@maxproof @AH Fully agree... And just for the record, I think my GTR would do a 7:15 ish min lap of the Ring - we are there in a couple of weeks but are doing the full circuit with the GP track. We will be over 200mph on the long straight as the rev's have been lifted to 9500rpm as its a full race, balanced engine, and will have the KW full race suspension and tires.
@maxproof By weight, do you mean mass? Weight and Mass are different. Extra mass is bad. Theoretically, extra weight would be good.
Downforce shouldn't be thought of as weight or mass.It is a downward force, and downwards only.
Mass carries extra momentum (bad), whereas downforce doesn't, because downforce is a force.
Power to weight ratio is not the only measure of performance. There are many things that don't make it onto a spec sheet, like the suspension geometry.
The only time where adding mass is useful is for things like dyno testing (read:950+hp cars) and off roading.
A car with higher mass carries more momentum and requires more turning force (grip) to turn. This requires the car to go slower to turn (reference friction circle of tyres.)
Extra mass is bad on a racetrack, full stop.