Honda has just unveiled the NSX-GT Concept, which will be entered into the 2014 Super GT GT500 Championship from Round 5 in Suzuka Circuit. The exterior is based around the NSX Concept that Honda has been teasing us with for years now, while power will come from a mid-mounted, turbocharged and direct injected four-cylinder motor, assisted by what Honda refers to as a Racing Hybrid System. Now all Honda has to do is unveil the street car!
Dino Dalle Carbonare
For everyone that is posting about the 2.0L Turbo being a blasphemy and ruination of Super G & DTM, I would like to know how much you understand or even know about the history of the DTM and Super GT. Here's a quick lesson, and there are many more...
In 1995 Toyota (SARD) and Nissan both took their current generation GT500 to Le Mans to compete in what was then GT1. The Toyota Supra was not using the fanboy engine of choice 2JZ, but instead a racebred 4 cylinder, Inline, 2.0L Turbo derived from Group C. The engine produced upward of 600HP, and Toyota had brought to Le Mans a very special qualifying motor. The engine was designed to last one lap, and put them on pole. It worked. The Super GT grid has seen every type & description of engine under the hood.
The DTM started as a 2.3L formula that grew to 2.5L. In later iterations the cars had more technology (active suspension, near limitless revs, traction control, etc) than F1 and became the ITM, a series that died because costs skyrocketed and it was so insular. The DTM was reborn, with much fanfare and very little fan response, in 2000 with new 4.0L V8 engine regulations. Mercedes and Opel came on board, but the Opel was sort of a joke and Merc was keeping the series alive. Luckily, the series has survived to this point but every team is factory backed; there are no privateers in the DTM.Quick tech reg history of DTM from perspective of the 190E: http://www.mb190e16v.com/Templates/Mercedes_racing%20index.htm
How about this... the only reason Audi is participating in the DTM is because Abt Sportline privately built Audi TTs and campaigned them until Audi decided to enter as a factory. The DTM Audi TT-R was running an alternative engine solution to the 4.0L V8... it was a 2.0L Turbo. And it won the 2002 championship.
Anyone interested in cars should check out my blog at http://spiritofauto.blogspot.com/
I find this change really refreshing. I've been following Super GT for some time, and i often only cares about the GT300 category as they have much bigger variety of vehicles, GT500 became very boring to me after the retirement of the NSX, and in recent years, there aren't much changing either(The look of the cars, mostly). I think this new regulation has bring some new air to the series, now i only wonder what the DTM side would say about the mid-engine layout of the NSX.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAb5L8trU4U&feature=youtu.be your welcome :)
I love the old HSV-010 GT (http://www.motorsportcars.es/2011/11/honda-hsv-010-gt.html) but this NSX GT is awesome. Very close design to DTM cars
Forgive me since its been a while I have read seen any info on Honda and GT500. They have HSX so two Honda's on GT500 grid? That would be cool. Again forgive me for lost/late info. Either way with the DTM looking aero that prepped NSX looks mean as hell!
It couldn't be otherwise! I'm glad that Honda is more active in racing. Paris-Dakar Rally, F1, new NSX. Also new Civic is doing very well in British Touring Car Championship. I cross my fingers for S2000 and Beat successors.
This is a sad day, I Loved the stand-alone rules/ cars in JGTC. The DTM is awesome but seriously watered down in comparison
Definitely did not expect a 2.0L 4 cylinder hybrid with the CR-Z using a twin turbo v6 hybrid. Very interesting indeed.
shakedown in Suzuka.http://youtu.be/pAb5L8trU4U
Ok...so the racing car will be powered by some strung out 4 cylinder motor, while the street car will be a hybrid AWD system that has absolutely no real connection to the racing car. I say the industry is losing sight and everyone criticizes me. This is what I'm talking about. The road car concept they released looks like crap compared to this.
The drive train will be different from what I can surmise, the powertrain will be different, and the entire philosophy will be different. Racing hybrid system...HA! What a joke. KERS in F1 needs to go, and DRS needs to go. They are adding artificial competition to racing and it needs to stop. DRS Zones and KERS are a slap in the face to drivers pitting their skills against each other.
Look at the responses you guys had to that feature on the 70 year old guy cracking 300mph and look at his car...the new era of motor sport is a joke and an artificial display of technology that puts more emphasis on bells and whistles than guts and glory. It used to be about men, now it's about selling some technology to 16 year olds who aren't educated enough to know better.
I'm sorry, but to what gentlemen are left in the racing world: we're losing the battle. It's sad and it's bound to go away. I'm only 24 but I already feel like a 50 year old man talking about how things used to be. It's a mad mad world....
Next year, the gt500 cars all use a turbo 4 cylinder. Honda was granted an exception to use a midengine layout. Their hybrid system could be used as a.testing ground for the system used in the F1 engine for 2015
I'm afraid, you got some of your facts wrong, Sir.
First of all, not every team in DTM is factory backed. There are customer teams like Mücke, MTK, Rosberg etc. In fact Audi only joined as a works operation after 3 or 4 seasons - until then the TT was run by Abt as a purely private entry.
Also, saying that there wasn't/isn't much fan reaction is wrong. I visited the Lausitzring round just 2 months ago and the stands were packed, despite the track being located in one of the poorest regions of Germany. DTM still dwarfs every racing series but F1 in Germany when it comes to the fan base.
@RobHernandez1 and a Koenigsegg - or maybe the other way round!
@mscars they will compete soon together
@HighBoOsT100 The New NSX will replace the HSV
@majik16106 These cars aren't racing until mid-way through next season
Ahh seems to be to comply to DTM rules...
I have to say, this car's aero definitely looks more DTM than SuperGT. The HSV-010 is still the coolest racing car ever built in my opinion, but this is definitely exciting!
That sounds... really really boring. :(
Damn it give me the banshee wail of the HSV-010! Damn you new SuperGT/DTM rules...
While I agree that DRS and tires designed to degrade are a bit too pervasive in motorsport, I would argue that it is the application of the technology that is hurting, not the technology itself. The WEC has freed up the harvesting and application of regenerative power, and that is a good stance. By limiting the harvesting and application to specific 'zones' it limits the teams in too many ways.
I have been a fan of motorsport for over 30 years and competed for 20 of them. Progress happens. Change happens. Sitting here and pining for "days gone by" that you did not experience personally is a bit like wishing your home town would never change. As someone who experienced motorsport in the 80's & 90's I can tell you that it was not all that great. Formula 1 was, and always will be, dominated by whichever teams builds a car to take the most full advantage of the rules. This leads to processional racing and very little passing.
Motorsport prior to the 80's featured high mortality rates, teams with so little budget they had to choose between a car that was fast, reliable OR safe... combinations of two of the three were largely impossible... There's nothing wrong with making more power from a smaller engine. This is cyclical. We've seen big engines come and go within sportscar racing (Group C) and Formula 1. Did you know that the first Turbo Era in F1 started in 1978 and teams were producing over 1,200 HP from a 1.5L I4 Turbo? The BMW engine dyno stopped at 1,200 HP and the engine kept pulling for 2,000 RPM. Best guesses from BMW put maximum power at 1,450 HP. While fuel flow rates will restrict that now, a deregulation of KERS and similar technology could see some pretty massive power gains. I guess my point is, don't be so scared of change.
Oh God, just knock it off. I'm sure there were guys in the 50's and 60's who were complaining that cars were too new-fangled and fast. Racing is now much more about the skill of the driver than the car. In the old days, when regulations were more lax, cars were vastly different from each other, so it came down more to the car than the driver. Today, when cars are nearly identical to each other, it comes down to the skill of the driver. You're acting like you just have to program in a track layout and the driver just sits back and has some tea.
Listen, despite what the old guys say, we're living in the golden age of cars right now. Cars are faster than they've ever been, more reliable than they've ever been, they're still relatively unregulated by the US government at this point, gas is relatively cheap, and if you're into vintage cars and racing, you can still participate in those things. In fact, this is the best time ever to be into old cars thanks to all the evil technology that exists to help them run better, and for longer. Now, you can sit around in your basement all day reminiscing about the old days you never got to experience, but as for me, I'll be out enjoying the car's golden age.
Old Man Ferrari said that disk brakes and mid mounted engines were a passing fad and that the new technology would never fly in Grand Prix racing. Hence why Ferrari was the last to adopt the technology, and a slew of British upstarts (see Colin Chapman, et al) dominated from 1960 onwards. Point being, at top echelons of racing, while we the spectator don rose colored glasses for days gone by, for the teams competing racing is a business and championships and points are the currency of greatness. Furthermore, this is exactly why cars that were so dominant and raced (and won) with pride eventually were quite literally thrown away. The Daytona Coupes were tossed out and basically sold for scrap after Brock and Shelby got back from La Sarthe. Now, they trade for strong millions.
@speedhunters_dino What a load of shit. I'm sorry but this is crap. It's like allowing a small amount of sports players to used HGH or other performance enhancing drugs. This is why I no longer follow motor sports. You spend enough time in it and you realize it's all crap.
@TougeSpirit Honda was granted an exception in a racing series? What the living f*ck??? That goes against everything a competition stands for. If it's not open to everyone throw it the f*ck out. Money didn't always rule racing, but I wonder who Honda had to pay off to get this opportunity on the take. OMG a testing ground for F1...who gives a damn, racing used to be about competition. This is an outrage.
GT series is dead in my mind when I hear the world "exception." Down sizing to turbo 4s....it appears the environmentalists have crept into our sacred sport and we are witnessing a form of hostile take over unprecedented in the temple of speed.
This represents something much larger in my mind that is a sad turn for the world of motorsport.
@TougeSpirit it appears you are correct http://www.racecar-engineering.com/articles/dtm-gt500-2014-the-ultimate-touring-cars/
@mscars Rules alignment should be complete for the 2017 season, which is also when the Grand-Am / USCR version "could" launch. I am still not sure where the money is going to come from for that series. DTM is funded solely by BMW, Merc & Audi with very little help from external sponsors. All the teams are factory supported...
@speedhunters_dino Yes. But they are on display at Suzuka this weekend. Or atleast are today.. so they I would think they will still be out tomorrow.
@andrewhake SuperGT was already planning to move to a 2.0L Turbo in GT500. The DTM will abandon the current spec V8 for the same engine formula as part of the rules alignment. The SuperGT and DTM cars will share a common chassis (Dallara builds DTM version, DOME builds SuperGT) and I believe the front and rear clip are also governed by stricy regulations. The NSX, being mid-engined, is an interesting technological feat seeing as how the tub was designed specifically for a FR layout.
@GregSampson I did know that Greg and I think that is one of the most impressive engineering feats ever to occur in open wheel racing.
However, F1 is supposed to be the pinnacle of the sport, when you artificially create passing through tires that degrade you are no longer epitomizing what the sport is supposed to be. I had this explained to me over the course of 2 hours on a phone conversation with a friend of mine who is an 8 time national champion IKF racer who currently races a Swift DB-4 Formula Atlantic car and several vintage karts / Formula Ford racers. When you have guys explain it to you who competed it makes a lot of sense how much the sport has taken a dive.
I'm not against small motors at all, what I am against is limitations in the top levels of the sport which is what I see occurring. Agree with you on the zoning and that was my original argument. If there are to be DRS and KERS they need to be allowed to be used at the drivers will. It's pervasive and robotic to ask otherwise.
I think a lot of racing series could do with a well advised over haul of their rules to get back to focusing on the drivers, not the passing or the fans. At the end of the day the FIA will try to make competition more even if one team is dominating and thats not right. You don't see professional tennis re writing the rules because Federer or Nadal keep winning. I just don't see why racing should be any different other than it's become so commercial it has lost sight of what it was meant to be in the 1st place.
@Rico05 You don't even have to go that far back. Remember when Audi said they wanted to try to compete at Le Mans with a diesel?
Luckily none of what you are saying is actually true. SuperGT has been doing a great job keeping the racing very balanced over the years compared to other series. It is great to see them opening up the rules a bit more to different designs and configurations.
Supras ran turbo 4s (3S-GTE) for several years in what was called JGTC GT500, and they did pretty damn well. The NSX was more competitive with the NA 3.5 V6 than the turbo 3.0 V6 that they experimented with. The differences in powertrains is what makes the series pretty interesting in my opinion. The ballast system ensures competition no matter how wildly different the cars are.
@TougeSpirit Why so angry Chris H? So much negativity and anger in the majority of your comments chill dude haha. Its okay to have an opinion but its not okay to constantly comment with moaning. Use more of a constructive way to discuss topics and maybe get some anger management, were all friends here. :)
@speedhunters_dino AAAAaaaannnnnd covered up and tossed back in the truck. dammit.
@GregSampson Excellent point. That was one of the better responses I've read on the net in a while. You really hit the nail on the head. Yeah my friend thinks it's ridiculous all the data kids are pouring over in karting now. It has it's place, but people start to lose focus on just learning how to drive and tune by ear, smell, sight etc.
A while back my Mychron 3 was stolen which is when I started to learn under this guy to tune by sight smell and sound. I haven't been in a while for lack of time and money, but it taught me a lot when I started to really get into it. I've learned to listen to my motor a lot more even just tuning in the driveway.
The funny thing is my friend will still kick developmental drivers asses even though he is into his 60s on inferior equipment. Come to think of it...most of my friends in motor sport now are guys in their 60s and I learn more from them than anyone else. They all think motor sport needs a rule over haul and thats where I've sort of picked up my mentality. I agree with you entirely though and it's good to know there are like minded people out there! :D
You make a lot of great points. The limitations are certainly hurting the sport and manufacturing "fan friendly" aspects such as a quota on passing. As best I can tell all of this was driven by the popularity of NASCAR a decade or two ago and a misinterpretation by the FIA of what made NASCAR so popular. That would be another interesting discussion (I think it is driven largely by the way Americans restrict themselves to polarizing opinions, not 'passing volume').
Much of the 'parity' in motorsport is also driven by escalating costs. Racing has always been horrendously expensive, and the advent of traction control, active suspension, telemetry, pits-to-car communication (setup changes on the fly), etc has escalated the costs of competition. Heck, your buddy probably can relate as I think Pi Data Acquisition was introduced to karting about 15 years ago. The only data logger I had in karting was my memory -which was poor- for RPM at corner entry, apex and exit as well as cylinder head temps. But, I digress...
Open rules and limitless competition are romantic ideas, but put in practice it quickly spirals out of control to the point you have a few competitive cars and a lot of grid filler. In Formula 1 this can work, but the manufacturers (aside from Ferrari) should not own teams. Ideally, you have a specialist engineering concern building a chassis with an engine supplied by a conglomerate, or someone like Cosworth, Judd, Ilmor (Mercedes), Hart (back in the 80's), etc. Give the teams a box into which the vehicle must fit, a certain amount of fuel and let them design as they please. Granted, math only works one way and if you plug all the numbers into a computer and draft some designs everyone will end up with the same result... which is why we have stepped noses. Still, the idea of open competition is more interesting than tires designed using a two year old chassis and limited from development, resulting in a tire that is now several generations behind what the F1 teams have developed from month to month.
Yeah you have point, but do you think the other makes would really want to run a mid engined layout? Also, the NSXs back then had a higher weight minimum AND a greater frontal area even though a mid engine allows for better front aero, to compensate for their mid engine advantage. Rules for each car is tweaked every year to ensure balance. Besides, FR layouts don't have that much of a disadvantage in GT racing compared to other types of racing. After all, every FR racecar is able to achieve rear weight bias anyways. Sure its not as centralized but the distribution isn't that far off.
@Kilika I know they did because the 3sGTE weighs a lot less than the 2jz and was mounted farther behind the front axle which allowed better weight distribution. From my understanding in the post one manufacturer is being allowed an exception to the rules and that IMO isn't fair competition.
@Daode @TougeSpirit I'm not angry at all, I just find a problem when one manufacturer is allowed to do something others aren't which is what I gathered from Touge Spirits comment. When someone is "granted an exception" that to me is garbage.
Mid engine layouts have an arguable advantage in racing across multiple functions of a cars dynamics. Why one manufacturer is allowed to do this and others aren't makes no sense. I don't get paid to design cars or compete in the GT series, but if I was a competitor and someone else was "granted and exception" I would be fuming.
@Chris H and anyway, if the NSX has an obvious huge advantsge over the other cars it'll eventually be governed back in line, that's how it always works =P
@Chris H I know, but NASCAR has stayed pretty much the same, with very little advance it change in the rules, outwardly at least right? Isn't that what you're campaigning for here? No progress?
@InnerToxicity Thats just too easy man....