Want To Harness The Takata Knowledge?

There’s definitely some merit to the phrase ‘it’s not what you know, but who you know’, so it’s a good job that we’ve got some pretty knowledgable partners here at Speedhunters! As part of the Ask The Expert series of features, in which we’ve quizzed KW on suspension and picked SuperPro’s brains on everything sway bar and bush-related, we’re now handing the torch over to Takata.

LARY1554

So what we need now are your questions about seats, seat belts, harnesses, mounting points and anything else related. Fire away in the comments section below, then we’ll get our friends over at Takata Racing to answer between 15-20 in an upcoming post.

Remember, safety first!

Suzy Wallace
Instagram: speedhunters_suzy
suzy@speedhunters.com

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1

Hi Takata! From a discussion in the comment of a Youtube video, someone claims that without proper extra gadgets, such as a HANS system and a helmet, using a set of 4-point seat belts is actually suicidal. I wonder whether the statement is valid or not. Thank you.

2
Speedhunters_Bryn

hanzr  Good question, there are lots of urban myths/internet theories around the subject of harnesses. Keep them coming!

3

I want harnesses, but I also want to keep my rear seat, what's the best way to go about installing the harnesses.

4

If a car already has bucket seats (ie no head rests) does that mean you cannot use the snap harnesses and have to use the bolt harnesses instead?  Also is there a specific harness to buy when using a harness bar rather than using the rear seat mountings? Sorry for the noob questions, but its easier to ask the source than to get opinions and buy the wrong products :)

5

hanzr  The main problem with 4 point harnesses is submarining (sliding under the lap belt). If a frontal impact, as your torso travels forward, the 2 shoulder belts will tend to push you down, this can cause partial slip under the belt, damage to spine ect and other stuff as a result, compared to a factory 3 point belt, the torso will rotate around, absorbing some of the impact. 

A 5 or 6 point just has 1 or 2 anti-submarining belts, to stop you from sliding under the belt, and also holds the buckle at the correct height as you tighten up the shoulder belts, instead of the buckle coming up much higher.

Takata, and others, have some 4 point belts with technology to submarining, Takata calls it 'ASM'

'In a severe impact, an energy converter on the shoulder belt containing the asm system, releases an extra length of webbing allowing the upper torso to slightly rotate, which tensions the lap belt asymmetrically, thus preventing submarining under the lap belt.'


All belts with ASM technology should NOT be used with a HANS device!

If its a street car obviously stick with factory belts.

If its a race car then 6 point harness, wrap around seat, cage and HANS.

Street and occasional track day car i would keep factory belts, unless you had a cage and good seat, then for whats its worth get a HANS also.

6

@WIDEMR hanzrSorry to press on symantics here, but when you say "if its a street car obviously stick with factory belts" does that mean one shouldnt fit your 4 point harnesses to street cars?

7
Speedhunters_Bryn

ultrachris2000 Let's not get too hung up with answering questions here guys, the idea is we get the people whose business it is to do that :)

8

Hi Takata,

I'm quite a tall guy(like mr Aasbo around 196cm) but I drive a Miata/Roadster which is a small/narrow car. Do you have any seats, prefarrably hardback, that will fit the car without having the holes for the shoulderstraps dangerously low?

Thanks in advance!

9

Is it true that mounting harnesses to the factory seatbelt locations, ie. on the floor, will cause spinal compression, because the belts pull your shoulders? Should all harnesses be installed in a completely horizontal line?

10
Speedhunters_Bryn

ultrachris2000  Hey, I get that you asked a question. I was just pointing out that we know who Takata are, we don't know who WIDEMR is. Their answer is interesting but let's focus on the point of this which is to get validated expert advice.

11

As silly as this may sound. With an aftermarket bucket/racing seat, can it still slide forward and back to accommodate different sized drivers.

12
Gianluca FairladyZ

Nice i have the same Takata's in my black Z !!!! Yeah.....

13

Speedhunters_Bryn ultrachris2000sorry i had a derp moment and thought it was takata replying. my bad :)

14

What is the maximum angle down from the horizontal plane should shoulder straps be mounted in your vehicle.

15

Bryn, etc - you should mention the fact that Takata is possibly the worlds largest OE supplier of seatbelts as well.  So it's not even some random aftermarket company giving the information

16

westhave  see the tillet seats website, they supply the seats to caterham and atom

17

How does the harnesses are fixed on a monocoque single seater?

18

Can you comment on a nice baseline setup for a daily driver with some track day and AutoX usage (1-2/month)? 
Right now I've got a set of Bride Maxis III I'm hesitating to install due to safety concerns with use of OEM 3point belts and novice install knowledge.

19

Seat belts in general have been around for decades without significant design change. Is there any new technology either now or in the future to improve performance, weight, or costs?

20

When mounting a harness is a sedan body, is there any special precautions that need to be taken into account for the harness length? I have been preparing a Recaro seat (adjustable back, universal sliders beneath) to be installed into my 1999 Chrysler and I don't want to purchase a harness that I can't get to fit properly.

21

Do 4 point harnesses dismiss the need for an airbag in daily drivers?

22

Harnesses always have an expiry date that seems to be quite short. Factory three point belts are good to go forever (or at least until there are visible signs of wear). Is there a difference between the longevity between harnesses and factory belts, or should we really look at replacing our factory belts well before we can actually see signs of damage/wear, OR are racing organisations being overly conservative about the length of time the that a harness can be considered safe for Motorsport use?

23

MitchellZink Yes, because airbag will not be necessary when you submarine to the leg areas. 4 point is not ideal for any car.

24

Tim Oliva  hahaha for a second i thought you said 1999 Chrysle......o wait, yea you did

25

MarbMack  Amazing Question!

26

JorgeMoreira1  Usually, after the harness points are determined based on the position of the driver, they install hardpoints inside the monocoque when the lay it up. This requires a good amount of planning, so most people get an "ergo" mockup to figure out where the harness will go. Hardpoints on a carbon fiber sandwich structure are usually made out of a machined aluminum piece, or a solid carbon insert that get's "sandwiched" in between the 2 skins (for a harness they will be around 1-2" in diameter). The insert gets sized such that the skins and the core don't fail in shear. After the monocoque gets cured they drill out the inserts and bolt the harness with blind, or thru fasteners.

I am a little confused at the top picture of the driver without a balaclava when the topic here is safety first =)

27
LukeEVOLUTIONVIII

How do you come up with inspiration for the seat designs

28

I am looking to get a harness for my project car that will see more time on the street than a track. I know there are some harnesses by other manufacturers that are designed for daily driver use and have inertia and electronic locks. Does Takata have plans for a daily driver harness with similar features?

29

Takata make great harnesses, my question is; can I please have one? I'm building a track kei car (Facebook 'Cyber MB') and I am looking for some sponsored items. One harness in green would be a big help. Also, this is not a joke! Thanks.

30

MarbMack  A bit of interesting read, AIMSS (CAMS) did a test on this and found old harnesses, which were still made to the same specifications, still passed ok. This is why now CAMS (Australia) allows FIA harnesses that show expired after 5 years, to be used for a further 5 years (non FIA events) 

http://aimss.com.au/full-story-competition-harness-life-extension/ 


But yeah, its all just about protecting themself, and FIA rated belts meet strict FIA regulations, most FIA events are very publicized (F1, WRC ect) with big budgets so there better to have strict rules and be safer then loose rules and somone dies. 

But yeah any race harness, or factory belt that has been in a big accident should be replaced, not that this is always done on street cars but i guess for the factory belt to be damaged the car would usually be written off anyway.

31

Speedhunters_Bryn ultrachris2000  Best reply to an unsubstantiated expert comment I've seen. Thanks for that.

32

Im not Takata, sorry.

33

@Mike  0 deg. (horizontally flat) to 20 deg. downwards.

34

I'm about to have a rollcage installed in my 106 Rallye. The cage I'm getting has mounting bars for the harness that are a little off center though. This means the harness is horizontally positioned, but a little slantwise from the drivers position. Are there any safety issues concerned with a slantwise way of fitting the harnesses?

35

Could you define the proper way you expect your harnesses to be installed, especially in regards to competition use for 5 and 6 points? Would you find a harness bar that simply bolts to various points within the rear cabin area acceptable to mount any of your safety equipment? 

I've always wondered this: what are some of the more grueling tests your seats and harnesses have to pass in order to earn FIA certification?

36

Other than Honda, who else do you supply as OEM?

37

About at what height to fix the harness at the back, max. angle, risks etc..

38

How safe is a takata harness system on the street? What precautions can users take to make it as safe as possible, and is a takata system an adequate replacement for an OEM 3 point seatbelt?

39

WOOOOAH, was not expecting the loading screen, is that new? Sorry...Takata, right, I have heard mounting the shoulder harnesses to the floor behind the seats is generally safer than mounting them to the crossbar behind the seats, is that true?

40

And when to start using a harness? I see barely unmodded cars running 4, sometimes 6 points (probably an overkill) as much as i see 400hp street cars with regular seats, so , at wich point should i "feel" or know that it is time to use a proper harness?

41

I apologize for the dumb question but why is it that you can not bolt the seatbelts that go over the shoulder to the floor board, why to the cross-member of the rollcage?

42

MidWest_Surfer  Sorry mate, I've heard the opposite and have yet to get a answer from anybody why that is so.

43

Where is the best place to mount the harnesses? lower or higher in the back

44

@WIDEMR  Speedhunters_Bryn ultrachris2000 Thank you for your guys' efforts. Much gratitude. Now let's just wait for the official answer from the expert, shall we :D

45

MidWest_Surfer DieterManero  That is absolutely NOT true. It's incredibly unsafe. Because of the extreme angle created by mounting the harnesses to floor, what happens is in the event of a crash, the harnesses tightening actually compresses down on your spine. This can cause serious injury.

46

I see a lot of people mounting the harness on the harness bar but it sits lower than an average persons shoulder line, basically pulling from below. I heard that if in an accident, this way when the harness holds you from below the shoulder, in an impact it pulls you downwards it puts a lot of stress on your cartilage between your vertabrae, wich is pretty harmful. Is this true, does it matter or is it just an "urban legend"?

47

I crashed my car with 4point harness the mounted to the floor behind the seats(actually in the rear seatbelt mounts so slightly angled). Only damage was a little seatbelt "burn" on top of my shoulder area. But I've always wondered about the proper mounting angle. Some people says mount it in the cage/harnesbar, and some to the floor.. Idk.. Will be interesting to hear what's the safest..

48

how much force can the takata harness take before tearing?

49

DieterManero if you crash or get rear ended hard enough the belts you mounted to the floor behind you will go slack the second floor crumples and distorts rendering your belts slack

50

TheFoes you were pretty lucky. The biggest issue with not mounting your belts to a harness bar or cage is the fact that if your cars body crumples in that area they will go slack

51

Why do most D.O.T's frown on the fitting of harnesses and race seats when ultimately it increases safety?
Apart from reduced movement to reach HVAC controls etc and possibly vision obstruction with winged seats I can see no logical reasoning.
If all cars were fitted with intergrated full cages, 'wrap around' seat and 4 points, there would be a lot less fatalities on our roads........ then again it might make it hard for mummy(mommy) to reach her lipstick in the glovebox or retrieve the latte from the cup holder............

52

does the angle the belts are mounted prevents your back from being pushed down into the seat which can cause spinal damage? and at what angle in degrees is needed to be safe

53

ModGuy  Really? you never look backwards out of your car, when merging or changing lanes? Visibility is dramatically reduced wile "fixed" in your seat.  Also new cars are designed to crumble in accidents, having additional braces such as roll cages would completely screw that idea.

54

hypodermic ModGuy While you make an excellent point about the visibility being reduced while changing lanes, I prefer to use my rear vision mirrors to look reward of my seating position. Your are correct in your statement concerning crumple zones but manufactures design the energy to be dispersed AROUND the so called 'Safety Cell' of the vehicle, especially any remaining energy from a resulting frontal crash... A safety cage, if concentrated to the passenger compartment, would little hinder the energy absorbing structures.. I should know, I get paid to repair various levels of damage in vehicles and I see the effects of collisions everyday being employed as a Certified Collision Repair Technician with many I-Car Certificates. Just look at how the Smart is built, It has a factory spaceframe..........

55

a proper harness is never a 4 point. 5 or more with a roll bar. It is not overkill to have 6. 4 will kill you 6 will not. Get it?

56
happydays88888888

I am looking to do an harness install on my 180sx.  Having put in a
cusco half cage in, can I use any part of the cage for the harness or do
I need an additional brace?
Also can you explain the different styles of Takata harnesses and compare positives and negatives. Thanks

57

Hey, i know this is off topic, but can someone tell me what's the model or the name, or where can i get one of these helmets?! Please....  /(´`.)

58

@Louie S  simpson bandit

59

ModGuy"If all cars were fitted with intergrated full cages, 'wrap around' seat and 4 points," then everybody must wear helmets... Very realistic.

60

In regards to the Drift II harness (Both snap and bolt), why does Takata suggest mounting the belt to the existing lap belt points when everyone seems to think that is unsafe? The belts are both manufactured in accordance to the European Standard ECE-R 16.04 and Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard (FMVSS) 209.

61

ModGuy hypodermic  harnesses aren't as safe for the road as people seem to think, in a frontal collision with a lap sash belt your momentum causes you to "roll" around the shoulder strap and slowly disperses the forces involved in doing so. When fitting different harnesses this changes, with a 4 point you will tend to "submarine" under the harness, not good, and with a 5 point all the body's momentum is transferred to the neck which is even worse and the reason that the Hans device was invented

62

777 ModGuyhypodermic Thank you 777 for an informative logical answer.

63

Hi 

I just wonder about where to get the Takata DRIFT PRO LE SEAT in Norway, and price.


Cheers

64

I would like to know why nobody sell the entire pack same model/design? Steering wheel, roll-cage, seat, seat belts, helmet. Everything inside. I really want something apart, a set with all this, bearing same design and color combo. Now, every body has MOMO steering wheel, SPACO seats, CUSCO roll-cage and TAKATA seat belts. Different designs, weights, qualities, price's and colors.

65

greenroadster  sparco has everythingyou want, harnesses, seats, suits, rollcages, steering wheels. If you look around you will find it

66

Takata, have you guys ever thought about the addition of shock
absorbers? Maybe adding some sort of spring or bungee to the mounting
point to allow our momentum to slow down to a safer level? Adding a
backup strap in case the shock absorber fails?

67

@TheGregButcher  : Definitely true! The belts need to be going straight back . The above picture in itself is wrong, since they go downward in angle of 45 degrees. Not only is it bad for your vertibrae, but think of seats unhinging en going backwards in the proces. Actually it's the same with everything else in life: It's only good if its executed in the right way....

68

Q: How does the build material affect safety and weight savings. Meaning carbon fiber vs Kevlar and vs fiberglass.
Q: If I want to buy a fixed bucket for my DD what features should I look for? Comfort comes to mind.
Q: Will the build material affect comfort? Again, carbon vs kev, fiberglass.
Q: Is it likely to develop back issues if I were to DD in a fixed back seat?
Q: Things to know about FIA approved and non approved seats.
Q: Would it be ok to use a recliner on the track?
Q: Harnesses. 4 point, 5 point? What's each best for.
That is all. :)

69

greenroadster there are companies you can do an all in one setup with, if that's your thing

70

happydays88888888 which cage?  If it's one of the blue D1 units, no.  Some of their other designs in the Safety 21 line, yes, depends on the model

71

JsZ34 Are you in America? If so, Scroth is the only company to make harnesses for street use. I wouldn't recommend a reclining seat on the track because the back can break and in term break yours. 4-point stop forward momentum while 5-point stops you from going forward and under. Basically a 5-point is an anti submarining harness.

72

I am in America. Thank you. Does any one know what the more comfortable/cushioned fixed back seats are. I love Recaros but Statüs look more suitable for street/ weekend track warrior use.

73

I know that many people disagree that the shoulder belts should NOT be mounted on the rear passenger seat belt mounts due to the steep angles that may hurt one's backs. The solution to it is fitting a harness bar which attaches to the B pillar.


However i'm curious if we can use the rear strut bar (which connects to the left and right rear strut towers) as a mounting bar for shoulder seat belts which i reckon would reduce the angle of the shoulder strap. 

Would that be an alternative mounting point short of fitting a welded in roll cage? It seems like a pretty strong mounting point.


Another thing i noticed on Takata manuals for the lap stash, is that they suggest to mount the mounting eyebolt on the factory seat (which also mounts the factory 3 point buckle). Is that ok? Or the best way is still to drill a hole in the middle of the floor plan and get a plate (to spread the load) and longer eyebolts?

Opinions?

Victor Cheong

74

ModGuy hypodermicEven though you use your rear view mirrors you still have blind zones around your car, and you will have to turn your head and look to your side to be able to see everything, as a motorcycle rider i would appriciate if you take a quick look before changing lanes :) Back to the use of race seats and harnesses in street cars. Most people would probably use them without a roll cage, in the case of a roll over wouldn't you then be fixed in your seat as your roof crumbled upon you?

75

How can we differentiate authentic Takata product from knockoffs that have been flooding the market?

76

JsZ34 Get a custom kirkey seat

77

czero  don't buy them off ebay

78

If the harnesses are made with high quality materials, how come they have and expiration date?

79

All sfi an fia harnesses have experation dates. It's a time frame set by the sfi/fia to replace or recertify the harnesses.

80

yazio  I used to get asked this a bit in a climbing environment (about harness strength). Really weather it is 20, 40 or 60kN your body will be toast. Correct fitment, resistance to corrosive substances etc are far more valid than the easily achievable brute strength of a device.

81

JohnnyC1 czero  there are legit sellers on ebay. no, i don't have takatas from ebay, just saying

82

Much has been said about the benefits of 5 and 6 point harnesses with anti-submarine belts, with many people stating that 4 point harnesses are less safe because you can slip under the lap belts. However, it would seem this would mean that the 3 point seat belts used in stock production cars would be unsafe, and yet no move has been made to change that. Does that mean 4 point harnesses are less safe than 3 point seat belts, or are 3 point seat belts kept due to their ease of use and convenience despite being less safe than 4 point harnesses?

83

so where's the A in this Q&A? searched the site and got nada, figured the response article would be up by now?

84

apex_DNA Nissan, Lexus, Scion, Ford Mustang & F-150, etc.

85

MitchellZink No.  Airbags (in most cases they are ours) provide side curtain, front, etc. for protection in case of an accident.  You do not jeopardize your safety wearing a 4-point harness on the streets period.

86

Tim Oliva All our TAKATA Race and Drift belts are one length and can mount to the rear D locations or wrap to a harness bar.  Our old MPH belts were sold in short or long before which we have discontinued.  So to answer your question, select a Race or Drift series belts for your application and you will be good to go..

87

@no5ki I would do the Drift 3 or Race 4 camlock belts.  The install is not hard with everything supplied by us and instructions.  Also, read this as well.  http://www.speedhunters.com/2014/06/takata-ask-the-expert-answers/

89

westhave http://www.speedhunters.com/2014/06/takata-ask-the-expert-answers/ - Your question has been answered sir.  Thank you!

90

JakWhite Depending on the vehicle you are driving look for a harness bar first.  Then, buy a Drift 2, 3, or Race 4 and install with wrapping to your harness bar.  This will keep your back seat open for people or the baby seat.

91

Douggie It's due to sun damage but also wear factor... Over time harmful UV rays will break down the fibers in the belt, as well as taking the harness on and off hundreds of times... The stitching loosens and UV breaks it down. Have you ever seen fabric that's been left out in the sun for a year or more? It becomes very brittle and in extreme cases turns to powder... I'm not saying the harness will fall apart but they are required to carry an expiration date for racing. You don't want to trust a 10 year old belt during a 100+ mph crash do you!?

92

czero Authentic Takata Harness are marked with a special hologram label behind the expiration date tag. Marked with a serial number. If you're unsure, ask seller to verify! :)

93

yazio An incredible amount of force... your limbs will rip off your body before the harness breaks. (as-long as it's mounted properly)

94

I recently bought takata racing harnesses straight from Japan. EVERYTHING passes the real test from the stitching down to the materials. the only thing diff is that the patch says "takata corporation" underneath the big takata . why is this? are they still real? cuz every real one I've seen it doesn't say this

95

So I recently purchased takata drift 4 point harness and it came with the wrap around harness bar style and I do not want to run a harness bar. Do you guys sell just a rear mountng bracket kit ? So I can bolt it directly to chassis

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