This week’s news about Toyota considering adding a KERS-equipped 86 to the lineup sparked a lot of interesting discussion about the future of this car. While the it’s been praised across the world for it’s dynamics, I don’t think anyone would complain if Toyota and Subaru were to release higher horsepower versions of the 86 and BRZ. Surely it’s something that’s in the works.
The question for this week then, is how would YOU like to them to extract more power from the car? Turbocharger? Supercharger? Keep it NA? Something like KERS?
Vote and discuss below!
What about the 1GR-FE that is found in the Toyota Tacoma and FJ Cruiser? It is a 4.0L V6 but it does share the same bore as the 3.5L 2GR-FE that is found in the Camry and Sienna. It's an aluminium block and the Dual VVT-i version puts out 254 hp and 270 lbft of torque on 87 octane and 285 hp and 289 lbft of torque on premium. TRD also offers a supercharger kit for the 4.0L that increases power and torque to 304 and 334. It would get good fuel economy and has already be developed which would save Toyota time and resources for getting it on the market.
Throw away the crappy subaru engine, remove all subaru influence of any kind including killing the entire brz model and acting like it never existed, treat the 2012/2013 models as the undesirable inferior stepchild version of the fr-s. And build it with an actual Toyota engine like they should've in the first place. Nobody can even pretend that subaru engines are anything but a pathetically weak shadow of Toyota's expertise.
What does subaru even bring for Toyota? Turboing? AWD? Wagons? No, Toyota had them all long before and is much better at it anyway. A clientele of white sububanite american yuppies who think they are eco conscious and nonconformists? No, Toyota already has the Prius for that. Time for Toyota to trade subaru away or let it die out. Subaru doesn't even rally anymore and their biggest seller is an ugly POS suv/crossover thing (which again, Toyota has covered with the highlander and rav4).
Dude, please stop being a dipstick.
Toyota isn't going to retool and make a boxer engine solely for the FR-S- and there's no room for an inline engine unless you laid it on its side. You have seen an FR-S up close with the hood up, right?
SOneThreeCoupe You are joking right? There is already one GT86 with a 2jz and one with a 2ur swapped in them. And my interpretation of what pstar is saying is that Toyota should NOT use that shitbox flat 4 at all (which is what I have said all along...) and that they should use one of their own engines.
Inline6ness Well crap, you have me there.
Remove the flat 4 and you change the whole car. I guess I just don't get some of you and your obsession with horsepower.
@SOneThreeCoupe @Inline6ness Power is nothing without control. The best way that's both relatively cheap and safer in the long run is improving the cars handling which in return gives you more usable powerband.
@apex_DNA @SOneThreeCoupe I agree that power is nothing without control... And the both those cars I'm talking about are built to drift so they are just hideously overpowered. The thing that bugs me about wanting to stay true to the Sports 800 with the boxer engine is that, Toyota only ever built that one car with a boxer, and then realized that it was too costly and not the way they wanted to go. It's not like it's a deep seated part of their heritage. And, I'm not obsessed with horsepower, but when you have such a capable chassis why not give it all the power it can handle. And the last thing I will say here is this... Honda once put an inline 6 in a motorcycle, BMW puts its inline 6 engines in at a slant for COG purposes and TOYOTA used both K and S family 4 cylinders at big slant to get it low and clear hoods.
@Inline6ness Now if you really want a driver's car, keep the high compression boxer the way it is (think of it as if AE86 had a kid with a Porsche, the interior already looks like one), but further reduce overall weight (down to 2200 pounds), make it even more maintenance and modification friendly, introduce double-wishbone suspension up front, and you have a winner.
apex_DNA I think 2500lbs is the best they're going to get before things start getting expensive... but yes, lighter is better. But yeah if they stay boxer, I already said up towards the top; 2.2L, same compression and direct injection, vvti and individual throttle bodies. A snappy high strung na that is still as reliable as a flat 4 can be. 250hp and 2500lbs would be pretty bitchin for an affordable rear drive scion. And they need some proper tires on it too.
How about toyota ditches the Subaru engine? Why not hand Yamaha a Honda K20 and tell them to make it better? Then put it into the FRS. Yamaha has a history of making AWESOME engines for Toyota how about do it again.
Who's gonna be the first to swap in turbo Porsche motor? Like 993 Turbo S... 420 air cooled horsepower for the win.
I think Subaru and Toyota should both mod their joint platform separately.
Offering different variants of the same car as well as the standard model for those who want to start from scratch and go full house or sleeper.
I think all 4 options are viable with KERS being the obvious future step for Toyota and Turbo for Subaru.
N/A is always going to be tough for a manufacturer to go super hi-po with, as it rapidly reduces the lifespan of the car which consumers still expect a certain usable life from.
The aftermarket is only just getting into these vehicles now due to the low supply numbers, but I think Toyota and Subaru would be foolish to not take advantage of the imaginations they have captured already.
For me, a strong benchmark of good NA power is the S54 M3 engine. Of course, There's plenty more examples, but that driving experience is tattooed in my brain. No fuss, just turn key n go!!
Why are people hating on KERS?? besides the complication ,which I'm sure that all the carb guys were saying when EFI was introduced, we can learn something new people. If it's good enough for F1 & Le Mans prototypes, it's good enough for me. Just along as cost are still reasonable. Toyota has obviously taken the efficiency and emissions of their vehicles as a priority. If they can make it were its electric at low speeds AND press to pass I could see myself having a lot of with that in everyday driving.
patmald Why going with KERS? KERS is complicating a simple car... Complicating to have a boost of 3 or 4 seconds at a cost of 50 or 60kg (maybe more) of weight, wich spoils the car.... Adding just 30kg, you can get a turbo system that not only gives MUCH more power than KERS, but also gives that extra power ALL the time, not just a few seconds...So yeah... Why having a Less powerfull, heavier, and overcomplicated car, when you can a have a more powerfull, simpler and more reliable one?
patmald Because KERS isn't a solution to new horsepower, its a solution to shut the people screaming F1 isn't green enough.
Far too much whining about how the car should conform to some bizarre notion of 'purity' by conforming to one type of brand-based mechanical arrangement or another. Far too few people objectively thinking about what the best way to boost this car's power would be.
Getting significantly more N/A power seems unlikely given the cost/benefit ratio along with the need to pass emissions and keep a warranty etc. although a few choice refinements to the N/A engine along with significant lightening of the car could prove to be an interesting approach. Likely more fun to drive but likely not much faster.
The good news here is that it's already quite easy for an enthusiast to do this themselves. All one needs to do is get an ECUtek reflash and a lightweight exhaust and start taking things off the car and/or swapping in lighter components.
If it's increased power we're after then turbocharging seems to be the most efficient option though. Superchargers on this car so far have been pretty disappointing and the parastic drag's effect of efficiency would probably make it a no-go for a production car.
A turbo system on the other hand, especially a small and fast spooling turbo, would fatten up the car's low end torque nicely while adding a lttle extra to the top end without sacrificing much in the way of responsiveness or efficiency. There'd also be plenty of headroom to easily and cheaply get more power out of a turbo system should Toyota, Subaru or owners wish to do so.
I can't think of when the KERS system would ever be beneficial in daily driving except rarely, i.e. in a 'push to pass' situation, which would mean that you're only carrying around extra weight and complexity 80% of the time while still routinely getting smoked by 370Zs, if not Camrys, in a straight line.
It's funny to me that people are talking about the car needing more power. I'm coming from a ~150whp S13 and was not unimpressed with the power. It's plenty to go fast in the twisties; it'll probably be a little anemic once you start adding altitude but it allows you to keep the car on boil and in the realm of fun without requiring wider tires.
Once you start adding power, you'll have to start adding width to the wheels and tires, and once you do that, you lose a little precision, a little of the accessibility of limits at lower speeds- you take away from the purpose of the car, which is to be fun at "legal" speeds.
The car needs better steering feel and damper tuning first. Take the money that could go toward horsepower and give the car some real steering feel and soften the ride up a tad, so one can haul ass on SoCal roads without constantly going into bump understeer and bump oversteer. I've determined that in order for me to actually like the car, and actually purchase the car, I would need to buy Whiteline's front end pieces to the tune of ~$510 and have a set of Bilsteins custom-valved to the car for the addition of another two grand. All of a sudden, a $25k car is a $27.5k car, and I'm paying 10% more to get a car the way it should've come from the factory.
How many of you have actually driven the car? How many of you understand its weaknesses first-hand?
@SOneThreeCoupe Exactly. As they say "power is nothing without control"...not that many RWD hipsters understand that.
More N/A power, to keep it a real drivers car. It is just a matter of time when there are good turbo's for these cars. Don't make it to complicated, just make it a good car, not a horsepower beast. It does not fit the car.
This poll is pointless because they're not going to add forced induction to the car. The aftermarket has plenty of power adders, and I suggest you all use them. I'm looking forward to the Vortech centrifugal supercharger and the Sprintex/Innovate Motorsports twin screw supercharger!
@Corey K You assume too much. SportCompactCar started the initiative that got Subaru to bring the WRX stateside. I was one of the people that put a deposit down on the wrx i 'couldn't buy', and it most certainly worked. Club4ag.com was included in the release of the FT86, because they championed the car... If speedhunters polls resulted in universal demand (rather than cynicism), it could result in a direct response from Toyota.
N/A is fun. But a factory turbo makes tuning much easier. It makes mods have much higher gains. This makes tuning more fun. All of the bolt on's for a modern N/A is not going to give very much power at all. But on a turbo car a few simple mods can have huge gains. It is not like the old day where header, intake and exhaust could get noticeable gains. Anything short of a rebuild with higher compression is not going make a difference. This car is not light enough for a 2.0L N/A to ever make it fast. People forget that the GT Apex 86 was very light and had very good power at the time 130ps in a 2300lb car. That is better power to weight then some sports cars at the time. That doesn't work when station wagon, minivans, and suv have retarded hp. Toyota has plenty of good engines like the 2jz or the 3S-GTE. Why they made used this awful engine is beyond me.
ColtReid This is all very true, however the 3SG and 2JZ, as good as they are, are weapons of the old guard. Would love to see them use an all-alloy conventional straight 4 along the lines of the 2ZZ-GE (but with 2.0 displacement) with ~11-12:1 compression and dual VVTL-I with high lift secondaries and direct injection. The largest car manufacturer in the world shouldn't have to steal someone else's engine to power the revival of one of their most famous ever cars. 86 should be all Toyota's doing.
Mattsda Why? The engine is incredibly robust. Tuners are making over 500whp with this engine, not even the EJ257 can do that without needing work to the engine block.
i think trd should do a supercharger, sti should do a turbo and they should keep the brz/86 exactly how it is keep KERS away from it.
kscf31 zamm333 Indeed TRD has a supercharger kit available for other engines, but not for this little boxer4. I think forced induction is the most logical route to more power. Whether it's from a turbo or supercharger, it makes the most sense.
They should go the other way, and sell a 'lightweight', with a stripped interior, thinner glass, a carbon roof, and a roll-cage ready dash. No radio, no spare tire... just right.
Make a rev-happier NA 86 version for the driving enthusiasts, and a turbo BRZ for fanboys. Case closed.
There are several people already making decent power with these things.
Here in Indianapolis, I saw one from IL at Lucas Oil Raceway Park running low 10's at 132-134mph. Obviously turbocharged and on good tires.
More NA powers, to stay true to the 86 heritage.A turbo version could be pretty cool too, but preferably only on the Subaru.KERS on the other hand is not something I'm a fan of, it's too complicated, and it will make it harder to modify the car, and it's also pretty expensive tech.
It still boggles my mind why Toyota would partner with Subaru on this and not use Subaru's turbocharged engines that they already produce. I mean the engines were already sitting in Subaru's factory so it would have saved both companies so much money and made them so much more money on the sales side. Just my two cents
I'd like to see multiple versions, a turbocharged or supercharged version, but maybe a NA version that is a little more rev happy and maybe something like "lift" would set it off. The brz would be nice turbocharged and the 86 supercharged? I think to keep it pure it needs to be NA but there is no reason why they couldn't have a base model, a sporty force inducted model and then another sporty NA model?
Also i think unequal length headers would be nice in the faster models in the brz range.
And this KERS idea is rediculous. You have an underpowered engine.........so you're gonna add KERS?! KERS was developed to prevent overtaking in F1....so it'll jus give u some power on tap when someone is riding ur rear. This is rediculous. Its just being "cost effective."
BevinWhite is right. u would expect more. its a bare, RWD, 2700lb coupe. Its a tuner platform. sounds great! but wait its powered by a 4-cyl 2.0L boxer pushing only 200bhp that is near impossible to squeeze more power out of it. I looked at an FR-S at the dealer. It is gorgeous. But honestly its very weak and its honestly very overprised. And dont forget, this is a brand new car so aftermarket parts of any kind are very very expensive. Its just not worth it unless it has a better powerplant.
I think the engine is almost fine, just not rev-happy enough. Maybe lightening the internals, raising the rev limit a bit and shortening the gears, in combination with a lighter flywheel would help.
That's for Toyota, I am absolutely fine with Subaru doing a turbocharged version of the car.
Why not combine supercharger and turbo like volkswagen does? They compensate each other
they should bring out a 6th gen 3s-ge, n/a with about 250ish horses, make it a proper toyota, no more of this collaboration with subaru!
supposed to be a simple rwd car that gets back to the basics of man and machine and the connection that comes from driving a car like this..same idea when BMW hit the nail on the head with the Z4 M Coupe!! No electric steering, no frills, clean natural throttle response,etc etc. Please keep it simple, were already looking at a classic exactly how it sits right now.....Turbo, that is why there is an aftermarket!!